MATF Minutes October 10, 2019

*MATF Minutes October 10, 2019

Link: https://www.w3.org/2019/10/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
*
*Text:*


  Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference


    10 Oct 2019


    Attendees

Present
    Kim_Patch, JakeAbma, Kathy, Jennifer
Regrets

Chair
    Kathleen_Wahlbin
Scribe
    Kim_Patch


    Contents

  * Topics <https://www.w3.org/2019/10/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
     1. touch target
        <https://www.w3.org/2019/10/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item01>
  * Summary of Action Items
    <https://www.w3.org/2019/10/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
  * Summary of Resolutions
    <https://www.w3.org/2019/10/10-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>


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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sszSUKB8t3VuRzxHtOjLfQZjNYCw-xr_EbuMwW7WiGc/edit


      touch target

Kathy: Google has a way of testing spacing between the different touch 
target so I suggest that maybe we go to Sean see if Google will share 
that with us
... Alistir said Sean said they had a way of testing it

Jake: I was discussing this at TPAC, he indicated something different – 
he said it's possible to tested but not that they have something already 
to test

<Jennifer> sorry, my computer is having problems, I'll have to try 
joining the meeting again

Jake: Wilco said the same thing. For every interactive element indicate 
position on screen. Based on that you can calculate if there is a 
disk<eight pixels between different components. Sean did not really 
impression that they already have something for that ar
... we need a script for that or a plug-in. It would be good to have 
that before we publish 2.2
... there is a little trick because you can calculate a button but maybe 
the touch target is made bigger by a custom element placed to make the 
button bigger than the touch target itself – make sure that that one is 
calculated
... but technically that should be possible
... let's ask Sean I'm pretty sure he did not mention that they had it, 
just that it's possible

Kathy: could you follow-up and see if they have something they can share?

<scribe> *ACTION:* Jake to follow-up with Sean to ask if they have 
something or information they can share, ask Wilco as well

<trackbot> Created ACTION-77 - Follow-up with sean to ask if they have 
something or information they can share, ask wilco as well [on Jake Abma 
- due 2019-10-17].

Kathy: testing aside, it seems like there may not be something existing 
right now but we can read something. I agree be good to have that before 
2.2 comes out – we want an easy way to test it
... I did go through and look – Amazon uses 8 pixels of spacing, which 
is actually fairly tiny. Most sites 9, 10. I think 8 pixels is kind of a 
reasonable spacing, and based on research that helps in being able to 
avoid touching multiple

Jake: what's the issue of making the touch target larger instead of the 
eight pixels

Kathy: the trouble with that is that is in at AAA – were trying to get 
this in AA
... getting the pixels between the elements is easier than saying you 
have to have a minimum size for the touch target. That's the reasoning

Jake: I also thought of another one – first of all, you never touch 
target the same time. another answer is if you have two pixels of 
spacing between, let's say your error area will be not as big

Kathy: wrong target might activate the one you intended
... that was the main thing we need to figure out this – it seemed like 
on the result that the questions were around visible gaps versus just 
extending the size of the target. The other reason is the AA versus AAA. 
But I think overall there was not a lot of objections that I saw to this 
other than that same comment.
... so I think what we can do is follow up with Wilco and Shawn and just 
finalize the document and add to the testing, description of how this SC 
can be tested
... Jake, it might be good for you to add had that detailed conversation 
about calculating the position on the page and be in the elements it 
might be good to actually change this in the description of how this can 
be tested, adding that

Jake: issue: in theory every small move or change of your viewport may 
cause flex books to readjust itself
... and also with percentages, if you use purely percentages your 
spacing will change based on the viewpoint with. And also for every 
breakpoint
... so you would have to do that 180 times – it may be so that we have 
to provide some fixed width for testing

Kathy: even if we did fixed width we are still helping the end-users 
because you are saying there is a point in time where you could get 
sufficient spacing between the elements

Jake: so for the automated testing what will you test? 320, 1280, all 
the breakpoints, every section in between

Kathy: I think we can do 1024 and where we have the reflow where you go 
to 320 pixels I think we pick and say were going to do those two 
breakpoints. Then you're looking at a desktop version, the mobile 
version, and if you're on a tablet you can magnify the screen to get to 
the other breakpoints overall
... I'm just throwing out ideas – I think were getting ahead of 
ourselves. let's see what they come back with as far as implementing 
this as a test and see with the limitations are and then we can come 
back to this
... I think we can go with that I think we need to collect information 
first. I think it would be good if we take a look at a few more examples 
of notation. We do have some pretty big ones Amazon and several of the 
other bigger sites
... in addition to implementation details we will need to come up with 
some techniques.
... Jake, you had mentioned you guys do something with flex box. Is that 
a technique we can add to this SC?

Jake: if you have containers, just elements in your HTML and use flex 
box, and you put your interactive elements directly in a flex box, you 
just never know if you have eight pixels
... maybe the best technique is for each flex box container padding of 
work pixels because it doesn't matter how big the flex box becomes, you 
have at least four for each so you have a pixels between

Kathy: that's a good idea – if you can add that in as a technique that 
would be good

Jake: you can use them of course for percentages of flex box but in 
general just make sure that every container you place elements and has 
at least four pixels padding, same container, also interesting listbox 
items options and they are in a drop-down menu and they are not 44 
pixels high may be issue

Kathy: I took a look at that – but we should look at that again

Jake: if they're not 44 pixels high and you have spacing in between them 
they will probably not be accepted by a lot of companies

Kathy: there's no requirement with the size of a touch target with that 
the only thing is if it's less than that you have eight axles between 
adjacent targets
... when I looked at lists of links those that have a minimum of a 
generally on website
... if the target is less than 44 x 44 pixels, then there's a minimum of 
eight pixels of spacing between adjacent targets except when the target 
is a block of text, so excluding a block of links or if the presentation 
is essential to the information being conveyed – so two exceptions
... drop-down menus, I didn't find a lot of examples where they didn't. 
Amazon was eight, nine was others

Jake: not sure about left menu

Kathy: we should go back and look

Jake: Amazon from Germany left menu, main menu, padding is two pixels 
and it's not 44 by 44

Kathy: US site, padding top and padding bottom, adds up to more than eight

Jake: hamburger menu on the left

Kathy: same – padding bottom of two pixels and padding top of seven 
pixels on the menu items. Other stuff going on in there but if you look 
at the actual padding it's more than a pixels

Jake: but not for the touch target because the touch target is the 
anchor element that's 42 not 44 and then only padding of two pixels

Kathy: padding top and padding bottom adding together – you're getting 
them on the one below and the one above, so nine pixels in between

Jake: only two pixels in between, not nine

Kathy: padding top of seven, unordered list margin 18 below

need to get the calculator out and figure out – it's more than a

Jake: I'm just telling the distance between where you can click between, 
for instance Amazon music and Echo Alexa, the spacing between the two 
targets is two pixels

Kathy: visually there's more than two pixels

Jake: I mean the pointer – distance between the touch target is two 
pixels. Then they just have to make bigger touch targets
... if you don't have 44 or eight, with your finger, it will start 
blinking between touch target it starts flickering
... there's a visual effect – a lot of designers don't want that
... on the other side there's something really good. For these kinds of 
menus 44 otherwise it doesn't look good because of the blinking
... most web developers have zero spacing in between those submenus – 
every iOS or android device you open they don't have spacing in between 
those kind of menus
... we still need to think about those – I know we even had them in 
dialogues and the bottom buttons – never spacing in between. That's a 
decision you have to make no eight pixels, no problem, go to 44. Just 
need to be aware that all these submenus – I think at least 80% have 
zero spacing in between and they do not all have the 44 pixels.
... I'm now at eBay. It pixels between, but the default select does not
... Adobe doesn't have space between, but they are at least 44
... Adobe is at 54

Kathy: the next step is to see if we can create a calculator for this, 
otherwise the validity of the SC goes down as far as able to prove that 
we can have an implementation and its testable
... let's get an answer or get someone to code something that and then 
we can make a couple of these changes to the text and we can go back to 
the working group with it
... let's take that as next steps


    Summary of Action Items

*[NEW]* *ACTION:* Jake to follow-up with Sean to ask if they have 
something or information they can share, ask Wilco as well


    Summary of Resolutions


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-- 
___________________________________________________

Kimberly Patch
(617) 325-3966
kim@scriven.com <mailto:kim@scriven.com>

www.redstartsystems.com <http://www.redstartsystems.com>
- making speech fly

PatchonTech.com <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
@PatchonTech
www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
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