Re: MATF Minutes 2 February 2017

As you were discussing techniques and mobie navigation / hamburger icon raised its head today, I’d just like to point out that I had drafted something already - see 

http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/Techniques/M0

https://github.com/w3c/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/blob/gh-pages/Techniques/M016.html

Best,
Detlev


> On 2 Feb 2017, at 18:13, Kim Patch <kim@redstartsystems.com> wrote:
> 
> MATF Minutes 2 February 2017 link: 
> https://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html <https://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html>
>  
> Text of minutes: 
> 
> Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
> 
> 02 Feb 2017
> 
> See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-irc>
> Attendees <>
> Present
> patrick_h_lauke, Kathy, Kim, Jatin
> Regrets
> Henny, Chris, Jonathan, David
> Chair
> Kathleen_Wahlbin
> Scribe
> Kim
> Contents
> 
> Topics <https://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
> 2.3 <https://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item01>
> 2.4 <https://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item02>
> 3.1 <https://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item03>
> 3.2 <https://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item04>
> 3.3 <https://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item05>
> Summary of Action Items <https://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
> Summary of Resolutions <https://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>
> <kathy>  <http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#wcag-guideline-2.3-seizures-do-not-design-content-in-a-way-that-is-known-to-cause-seizures.x>http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#wcag-guideline-2.3-seizures-do-not-design-content-in-a-way-that-is-known-to-cause-seizures.x <http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#wcag-guideline-2.3-seizures-do-not-design-content-in-a-way-that-is-known-to-cause-seizures.x>
> <kathy> regrets henny
> 
> <kathy> regrets chris
> 
> <kathy> regrets David
> 
> 2.3
> 
> Kathy: I do think there's anything special we need to do under 2.3 for mobile
> 
> Patrick: agreed – no extra needs
> 
> 2.4
> 
> Kathy: we don't need to talk about getting into the new mobile stuff here. 24.1 bypass blocks – anything
> 
> Patrick: nothing beyond desktop – navigate by landmarks. Skip links – we've hit problem with bootstrap where chrome gets confused about what you want to do. I filed a bug with Apple – Safari has some bizarre behavior with skip links. Technically there are some problems but in principle skip links from desktop should work on mobile as well
> 
> Kathy: I agree
> ... we had one under multiple ways – include shortcuts to jump. I'm surprised that's not in there already as a technique because it's not just mobile
> 
> Patrick: I'm not sure it needs to be called out – it would apply to users on the desktop
> 
> Kathy: I think we need to remove M 12
> ... 2.4.6 headings and labels – mobile relying on labels
> 
>  <http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#wcag-guideline-2.3-seizures-do-not-design-content-in-a-way-that-is-known-to-cause-seizures.x>http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#wcag-guideline-2.3-seizures-do-not-design-content-in-a-way-that-is-known-to-cause-seizures.x <http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#wcag-guideline-2.3-seizures-do-not-design-content-in-a-way-that-is-known-to-cause-seizures.x>
> Patrick: even though there's nothing here at the moment – Kathy's point about placeholder – that that shouldn't be used – I would be for writing a technique or flagging it in a note – something along those lines
> ... I know some work is being done or at least discussions around this topic in the HTML working group. I think it includes some form of note the placeholder should be replied upon as the only label being used
> ... I'm happy to take that one to explore possibility of including something in WCAG about the use of placeholder is the only way of labeling– applies not just to mobile what to desktop as well.
> 
>  <><scribe> ACTION: Patrick to explore possibility of including technique/note about the use of placeholder as the only way of labeling 2.4.6 [recorded in  <http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action01]>http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action01 <http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action01>]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Explore possibility of including technique/note about the use of placeholder as the only way of labeling 2.4.6 [on Patrick Lauke - due 2017-02-09].
> 
> Patrick: 2.4.7. Touch focus isn't as important as keyboard but provides positive reinforcement. There are techniques to make sure that, say links that are clicked do show an actual outline or some kind of focus state as they are being activated. In principle it would be good to have that. I can provide some material for it
> 
> <patrick_h_lauke>  <https://gauntface.com/blog/2013/12/09/focusing-on-the-web-today>https://gauntface.com/blog/2013/12/09/focusing-on-the-web-today <https://gauntface.com/blog/2013/12/09/focusing-on-the-web-today>
> Patrick: some kind of note just because just because it's a touch device, doesn't mean focus is not important. Visible focus styling is also important ontouch devices or devices that don't use a traditional keyboard – that could go into understanding – focus visible
> 
>  <><scribe> ACTION: Patrick to at least contribute to M001 under 2.4.7 [recorded in  <http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action02]>http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action02 <http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action02>]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - At least contribute to m001 under 2.4.7 [on Patrick Lauke - due 2017-02-09].
> 
> Patrick: 2.4.8 not sure how this is different than what you would do on a desktop
> ... nothing specific is coming to mind – just another way of doing navigation for small screen but it doesn't sound like it's specifically a technique that we want to show as a way of providing this
> ... M015 – not thinking of a technique specific to mobile
> ... 2.4.9 – nothing
> 
> 3.1
> 
> Patrick: 3.1.1- 3.1.6 can't think of anything that's not already covered
> ... nothing mobile specific that we need to add
> 
> 3.2
> 
> Patrick: 3.2.1 is less of a problem on touch, or applies the same way on touch – just because it's a touch device would still want to avoid triggering things on focus. May want to add a note, but maybe not, don't want to scatter notes in understanding
> 
> Kim: issue with focus is if the input isn't touch, focus may act differently because touch automatically focuses (similar to the mouse on the PC). This is especially apparent with speech input. The question is whether it's different in mobile/touch, or there something specific for mobile/touch – an extra warning. But I agree that we don't want to scatter notes all over the place
> 
> Jatin: do we need ontouch
> 
> Patrick: just looking at what's currently here – what we can put in existing SC's
> ... 3.2.3 doesn't talk about hamburger menu type expand/collapse but beyond that the principal is already there so potentially it could be written as another technique, but I wouldn't push for it
> 
> <patrick_h_lauke>  <https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/G61>https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/G61 <https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/G61>
> Patrick: there's no code, just in prose. The only sufficient technique for current 3.2.3. We essentially want to say roughly the same thing just hamburger menu make sure things are in the same order – I don't think it needs a new technique just to say that this also applies when it's collapsed in a single icon like a hamburger menu
> ... so I'd say leave the mobile navigation bar one aside and lost somebody has a burning desire to write something
> ... conceptually it's the same as desktop– of what were trying to say here is inside what comes up when you trigger it, the order is the same that you should already be thinking about that in desktop so would probably feel weird if we single it out as an example – something like a mobile smallscreen collapsed navigation. so I would be in favor of dropping this technique
> 
> Jatin: agree, recommend dropping navigation bar example
> 
> Patrick: orientation order – may not always be the case that for a small screen device for instance you may choose one way of navigating the site which is very different from what you would do on a larger screen desktop
> ... so I'm not sure system navigation is a success criteria in the moment applies. I think the important thing is as you stay within your screen size it stays consistent, but between those as well probably goes beyond what the SC itself is requiring. Part of that technique would be covered in the change of orientation, how things change when you go from portrait to landscape. I don't...
> ... think the current spirit of 3.2.3 covers across devices as well
> 
> <patrick_h_lauke> i.e. it needs to be consistent WITHIN one particular size, but not consistent even when switching between different sizes
> 
> Kim: so it goes too far for the FC, or it's not necessary in general
> 
> Patrick: not necessary at this point
> ... the way I read it it says they should remain consistent and I don't think that's the case that 3.2.3 applies because what you go past a certain breakpoint it would be a different case – the consistency part can't go across versions. That's just a natural thing that won't happen. So proposing that technique implies something that I don't think it does
> 
> 3.3
> 
> agree that 3.3.1 nothing extra in mobile
> 
> Patrick: 3.3.2, agree with M005, not sure about M021
> ... M
> ... M005 would also be good to discuss what kind of instructions we have in mind – text, how to word it or orderly dialogue – verbiage point of view or here's how you can provide, tap, bring up descriptions. Seems to be the latter.
> 
> Summary of Action Items <>[NEW] ACTION: Patrick to at least contribute to M001 under 2.4.7 [recorded in  <http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action02>http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action02 <http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action02>]
> [NEW] ACTION: Patrick to explore possibility of including technique/note about the use of placeholder as the only way of labeling 2.4.6 [recorded in  <http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action01>http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action01 <http://www.w3.org/2017/02/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action01>]
>  
> Summary of Resolutions <>[End of minutes]
> Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm> version 1.148 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>)
> $Date: 2017/02/02 17:04:29 $
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> 
> Kimberly Patch
> President
> Redstart Systems
> (617) 325-3966
> kim@redstartsystems.com <mailto:kim@redstartsystems.com>
> 
> www.redstartsystems.com <http://www.redstartsystems.com/>
> - making speech fly
> 
> www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
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