- From: Kim Patch <kim@redstartsystems.com>
- Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 12:11:25 -0400
- To: "public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org" <public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <5747202D.7070807@redstartsystems.com>
*MATF Minutes 26 May 2016 link:
*https://www.w3.org/2016/05/26-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
*Text of minutes:*
Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
26 May 2016
See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2016/05/26-mobile-a11y-irc>
Attendees
Present
Kathy, Kim, Henny, jeanne, Marc, David, Jon, Detlev
Regrets
Alistair, Patrick, Alan
Chair
Kathleen_Wahlbin
Scribe
Kim
Contents
* Topics <https://www.w3.org/2016/05/26-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
1. Finalizing Guideline 3.4 - Orientation
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_3.4.1
<https://www.w3.org/2016/05/26-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item01>
2. Discussion on Guideline 2.6 -- Make it easier to use the
physical features of the phone
<https://www.w3.org/2016/05/26-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item02>
* Summary of Action Items
<https://www.w3.org/2016/05/26-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
* Summary of Resolutions
<https://www.w3.org/2016/05/26-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<Kathy>
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_3.4.1
<Kathy>
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.
Finalizing Guideline 3.4 - Orientation
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Proposed_revision_of_3.4.1
Discussion on Guideline 2.6 -- Make it easier to use the physical
features of the phone
Kathy: David's comment -- whether or not keyboard operability is already
required in 2.1.1 so whether it's needed here. Jonathan agreed with that
<chriscm> Hey All. Internet struggles. Hopefully connected to the WebEx
shortly.
Henny: What input
Kathy: have to discuss what actually falls under device manipulation
... cross out and/or keyboard -- that would mean that if they were
available by keyboard we're still requiring those to be by touch because
we've got rid of the or, but it does keep them kind of separate from
each other
... we could think about combining some of those in the future
<jeanne> definition of device manipulation ->
https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/#def-device-manipulation
Kathy: we can leave the and/or keyboard in there for now and come back
and revisit that.
... revisiting now...
Jon: ultimately if they were available -- we would say how they were
performed -- I have a concern but not a suggestion
... maybe supplement 2.1.1
Kathy: we could do that for WCAG 3.0 not for 2.1. 2.1 we can only add
success criteria guidelines or add techniques to existing success
criteria. Can't change existing success criteria.
<Kathy>
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.
<davidmacdonald> i'm in late
<davidmacdonald> hi
<marcjohlic> And existing 2.1.1 Keyboard:
https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/keyboard-operation-keyboard-operable.html
<davidmacdonald> getting my mike together... understand, but can't talk yet
(need to add "." at end of 2.6 link above, because it disappears when
you click on it)
Jon: how is this different from 2.5?
... already have the criteria that says everything must be available by
touch
<Kathy>
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.
Kathy: maybe we need to add notes under the touch -- or we could have a
failure that advice manipulation gesture is the only way to accomplish a
key task under 2.5.1
... 2.5.1 saying everything needs to be available by touch
David: traveling on the road do not have access to the keyboard, it's a
lot to ask keyboard and touch available -- we might get pushback on it
but I think it's worth bringing to group
Kathy: Key Point is 2.5.1 already requiring touch, and we already have
success criteria requiring keyboard, so this is not needed at all
<Kathy> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/touch.html
David: is it requiring everything by touch or requiring everything that
is available by touch still available with accessibility
Kathy: referring back to touch and pointer -- you could argue that
device in a place in gesture isn't available via touch right now...
David: this is just requiring that once you turn on your assistive
technology touch that was already there works. This doesn't require you
to have a touch gesture for everything
Jon: I didn't realize we had left this out of 2.5 -- I think everything
should be available by touch
David: turn 2.5.1 into 2.5.2 and do new 2.5.1 everything required by touch
Kathy: have been requiring touch or keyboard but not necessarily both
... I can see the arguments on both sides -- everything needs to be
available by touch when touch is the primary way of interaction
David: the way that we used to think about a desktop with a keyboard so
everything is accessible by keyboard on a mobile device it really is touch
kathy: it's already everything by keyboard, also adding everything by touch
... speech is another way of interacting with keyboard. That was Henny's
point earlier that we have to be considering speech API
David: do we like the idea of requiring touch in addition to keyboard
... the new 2.5..1 everything is available by touch. The new 2.5.2
everything available by touch is still available by touch with AT
Jon: developer standpoint: I can create controls on the screen or
keystrokes and that's the current requirement. But the keystrokes would
require someone to have a keyboard. so I think I'm in favor because that
breaks out a loophole requiring people to carry around a keyboard in
order to operate the mobile device. Maybe doesn't go far enough with
some of the issues for speech users ...
Kathy: I like that. When we talked about this originally I thought that
was the direction we were going to go and then we had. Trying to think
back why we didn't do that to begin with. We did have conversations
about this before
<jon_avila>
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Touch_Accessibility_(Guideline_2.5)
<https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Touch_Accessibility_%28Guideline_2.5%29>
Kathy: also feedback from WCAG working group -- a fair bit so far, they
have until next week to send it back.
Marc: through touch or keyboard?
<Detlev> sorry to be late - had computer trouble
David: what about about touch on mobile views
Kathy: touch on laptops etc.
David: touch only SC
Kathy: failure about device manipulation
David: failure it's only available by keyboard
Kathy: then were going to get into what if a device is to have a
touchscreen, or an application is only meant for desktop through
keyboard interaction
... not everything has touchscreen
... nonverbal user can't use speech, doesn't have keyboard. Keyboard
alone, speech alone is not sufficient to go through
Jeanne: example of a person who's using a tablet that's bolted to the
wheelchair where the undo function is only available through shake. That
person would not be able to undo things on their tablet. Touch user,
don't have keyboard, but can't shake the device
<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to give the example of the person with a
tablet bolted to their wheelchair and cannot shake the device to undo.
Marc: rather than including almost writing in a way so you're not
excluding the methods of input that are available on the device. You're
not locking someone somehow into a shake gesture or you are not locking
someone into only doing it on the keyboard. But is there a way to write
a success criteria that would cover that or do we have to cover them all
separately
Chris: iif you use onclick events in JavaScript those by default respond
to etc. Others don't
<Henny> I have to drop off. School pick up.
Marc: yes exactly I don't know if there's a way to write that for
devices just yet
Chris: and any wording that I can think of off the top of my head would
be extremely device specific
Marc: I'm just a have a way to address all at once rather than have to
address all specifically
Kathy: more of a 3.0 topic because it goes into revisiting the whole
keyword success criteria
... I like the way that you're thinking -- anticipate things in the
future but right now we have to stay within the existing success
criteria and add on to those
Chris: talkback trap -- I think the keyboard if you are thinking about
the way WCAG exists right now -- if it works on the keyboard it's
probably reasonably accessible. Because each operating system variant if
it works on the keyboard that suggests that people are following the
correct programming practices etc. If we're talking about a 2.1
extensionI believe the way to accomplish what were...
... talking about his let's focus on the keyboard/touch and the
sequential navigation thing. And maybe in 3.0 we can be a little more
abstract and talk about it in the way that Marc is wanting to
Kathy: are there scenarios right now that if something is keyboard
accessible it doesn't have a touch equivalent
... I had one last night -- skip link kept Kicking me out to the URL
bar. Keyboard accessible worked on the desktop, when you're using touch
doesn't work
... that gets into things that are with screenreader turned on. This is
going back to the point of where we were originally with saying
everything is available by touch. Think the conversation went -- what's
not going to be available is keyboard is available. Is there anything in
touch that's not going to be. I think there might be a few cases.
Chris: you might get 75,80% of the way there by focusing on the keyboard.
Kathy: we can have suggestions for things to be included in 3.0 but were
not working on that right now
... everything available by touch is not necessarily out of scope --
question is is it needed
Kim: everything needs to be keyboard enabled, everything doesn't need to
be device manipulation enabled, but touch is in the middle -- question
is do we need everything to be available by touch
Detlev: I can't think of anything right now which wouldn't be able to
work by a virtual keyboard
David: are we solving a real problem
... we could do a new success criteria that says everything is available
by touch but are we going to be solving a whole bunch of people's
problems if we do that -- it's a huge burden on developers. Is it more
of a usability thing everybody is going to be using touch so we
shouldn't worry about it
Jon: we were focusing on device manipulation gestures -- what are the
equivalent for those with the keyboard. Assistive touch and Samsung but
how would you do that with a native android
<Kathy> I guess the WebEx cuts off at noon
<chriscm> LOL, nice chatting with everyone I guess.... :)
<davidmacdonald> ooops, guess that topic is over :)
<Kathy> we will pick up the conversation next week
<Kathy> thanks everyone
<jon_avila> http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/device/orientation/
<Detlev> got kicked out by webex
<marcjohlic> :D
<davidmacdonald> So the big question is if we require everything to be
available by touch, are we solving real barriers or should we tighten it
up i.e., all non touch, non keyboard manipulation is available by touch
Kim: another question is is it easy to do -- if there are use cases and
it's just a matter of making sure there's a virtual keyboard for
everything it may be not such a headache for developers
<davidmacdonald> I think that is where we should go.... "all device
manipulation is available by touch" with a definition of manipulation
already there.
<davidmacdonald> hope that's captured in minutes.
Summary of Action Items
Summary of Resolutions
[End of minutes]
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Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl
<http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm>
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$Date: 2016/05/26 16:08:26 $
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___________________________________________________
Kimberly Patch
President
Redstart Systems
(617) 325-3966
kim@redstartsystems.com <mailto:kim@redstartsystems.com>
www.redstartsystems.com <http://www.redstartsystems.com>
- making speech fly
www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
___________________________________________________
Received on Thursday, 26 May 2016 16:11:57 UTC