[MathOnWeb] a11y task force minutes 2018-09-10

Hi everyone,

Here are the minutes from the meeting of the accessibility task force two
weeks ago. Sorry for the delay.

Best,
Peter.

# MathOnWeb Accessibility TF, 2018-09-10

* present: Charles, Peter, Kevin, Kathryn, Joanie, Steve, Volker, Dani

* Kathryn intro
  * University of Connecticut
  * IT Accessibility Coordinator
  * we've had a lot of questions about math accessibility come up lately

* Volker: we started as a first step to look at ambiguous notation
  * Neil started with fractions
  * Volker put in MathJax v3 examples
* Peter: added some other examples on roots vs radical sign, implicit ops
* Charles: should we put in MathML examples to show how this could be
detected?
  * Volker: sounds good
  * Charles: so 'fraction' is basically a grid?
    * Peter: more like a stack, flexbox is a good comparison, cf. CSS
examples
* Volker: a lot of things are just there to align things
  * e.g. multirow/multicol in LaTeX
  * people don't really want frac, they want different things
  * peter: could you explain in more detail?
  * Volker: e.g., first wikipedia example
    * you want to align
    * you can't do this with tables well
  * Volker: later example cannot be done with that either
* Kathryn: How will this translate into other environments, like learning
management systems?
because they're so restricted on how content can be authored
  * Peter: I'm afraid we're currently talking about something further away
    * e.g. the standards that would make this happen don't exist yet
    * but tools for LMS's bring an opportunity, e.g. editors like WIRIS,
tools like MathJax, etc
      * they can provide intermediary solutions that make such standards
work now
* Dani: I added more examples
  * mixed fractions in implicit operators
    * 2 1/2 is a mixed fraction in US/UK but 2*1/2 in Spain
  * variables, somewhat overlaps implicit operators
  * decimal numbers
  * precedence
* Peter: decimal numbers is primarily a localization issue?
  * Dani: yes.
* Charles: do ,-languages use commas as separators?
  * Dani: Yes. So vector (2,3) vs number (2,3)
  * Charles: so much more ambiguity
* Peter: next steps?
  * Dani: tell people to add more
* Dani: three more topics
  * we also want to talk about node labeling
  * also formula navigation
  * who has to write these ARIA extras?
    * automatic? Just write MathML/TeX etc, then some tool (WIRIS, MathJax)
does it automatically?
    * then author says "not a fraction but Jacobi symbol". How?
* Joanie: can you get clarification on aria labels?
  * just using labels sounds bad
  * navigation: should screenreaders just get out of the way?
    * ARIA doesn't do navigation as such
  * Volker: we've been talking about aria-owns etc at the Workshop
    * Joanie: so that's re-ordering the tree
* Dani: on labels
  * when we did some experiments last year, we realized that there are
limitations
    * e.g., overruling what the minus sign represents was not possible
  * or: general description before somebody explores it
* Joanie: so recap: sounds like 4 problems but two main distinctions
  * 1. authoring guidelines => ARIA sub group
    * for overview, aria details might help
  * 2. whether a screenreader will read your label
    * generally won't work
* Dani: Yes, let's look into details
* Joanie: could someone create examples of what people expect to hear
  * ideally a separate wiki page
  * then we/ARIA  can think about authoring guidelines
* Volker: continued fractions are a good example
  * we know what we want them to say
  * but building the tree is tricky
  * also in terms of navigation
* Dani: another example, stretchy parenthesis
  * when you build it with separate pieces
  * you might be using several characters
  * AT should not read this separately
* Joanie: simple test cases would be good
  * then ARIA Authoring TF could provide advice
* Peter: my personal missing piece is providing specialized  braille formats
  * Joanie: that's https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/771 ?
    * ah no, that's input
    * https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/765
  * Joanie: please add more comments
* Peter: back to ambiguous. any more input on existing info?
  * => no.
* Peter: road to TPAC
  * what are the 3/4 topics what we want to prep?
* Charles: are we meeting with ARIA?
  * yes. https://github.com/w3c/mathonwebpages/wiki/MathOnWeb-CG-@-TPAC-2018
* Peter: to recap:
  * 1) labeling things 2) navigation 3) authoring, tooling and how they
integrate
  * Joanie: tools should come last
    * as long as we don't know
    * I think tools and tool builders can
  * Peter: I kind of agree and disagree
    * we have the tool builders for specialized parts
    * and if we can't polyfill we're at risk of failure
    * but totally agree that creating tools that pump out standards that
aren't implemented isn't the goal
    * working in the bubble is definitely pointless
  * Peter: we're getting close to TPAC anyway so we need to focus on
prepping htat
* Charles: what's the plan for the TPAC meetings?
  * Peter: TFs will prepare their relevant meeting
  * Charles: any plans for the main meeting?
    * Peter: good point. Recapping previous meetings
    * but additional points welcome
  * Charles: in the morning?
    * => too busy, spontaneous
    * Do we have a room?
      * only at the CG time