- From: Peter Krautzberger <peter@krautzource.com>
- Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 03:07:18 +0200
- To: mathonweb <public-mathonwebpages@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CABOtQmFskcogo-3L_k_UbPsW0xDpGNq00dgTv2Dot3rCaNwTpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Hi everyone, Today's minutes as well as the previous (which had been very short so I forgot to post them -- sorry). The next meeting is April 12, noon (Eastern). Best, Peter. # MathOnWeb CG 2018-03-30 * Present: Moritz, Arno, John * Regrets: Volker, Dani * Arno: finding a serializable representation * did it because I needed it, get semantics from formula to eval, process etc * looked around for standard representation * not so much visual representation (have others) * thus the post * Neil: capturing semantic information in a tree (or else) is a great topic * serialization is not important, comes later * I'd like to focus on the contents of the tree * Arno: I agree content is kind but form matters * if you need to work on tree that requires a bunch of libs to process, that does not make it easy * something that serializes in a standard way would make it easier for libraries, to improve exchange between libraries * Neil: great goal but we haven't really achieved it * openmath kind of does that but isn't really usable (outside research into the format) * Arno: agreed * parts of openmath community wanted CAS representations that work across systems * didn't work because e.g., mathematica and maple disagree on implementation * Arno: today they exchange on the presentation layer * e.g., Mathematica and Maple exchange TeX/MathML etc * seems like we can do better * Neil: true but you can't capture everything * Arno: exactly. But if we can exchange something that's better than nothing * Neil: they can do something using MathML etc * ContentMML and openmath are not rich enough * I think you'll have to be careful how you map things out * how far do you want to go * e.g., once you get to branch cuts, systems do it differently and things fall apart * Arno: falling apart seems extreme point of view * Neil: some cut off point may be possible (e.g., high school) * but people don't seem ready to write * Arno: in a symbolic system, they want to enter the information * but if not, then not. * we have a bunch of systems that do things differently, different heuristics etc * those systems are multiplying, they are using their output but not sharing them at all * Arno: e.g., my post mentioned MathJS * converting to their structure worked ok * but most people use a string input, then MathJS does its own parser, assumptions about invisible times etc, then computation * so MathJS has to do that work, every other lib does the same. * users can't exchange anything, can't get consistent result * but there's * Peter: I mostly deal with conceptual not procedural but this discussion reminds me of a related problem in AT * heuristics go haywire a lot without a way for authors to fix them * Neil: heuristics are often 99% * semantics would be great but people are not authoring * Peter: from a conceptual way, you could fix those with interest * paving cow paths to improve heuristics would be reasonalbe there * not sure about how procedural info could be used that * Arno: in TeX you have macros etc * those are similar and could be leverage * Peter: I had a discussion about components at a workshop last week * remembering many conversations about templating in (MathML) editors, publishers struggling * the web has this of course, not just web components but just regular components * Moritz: exposing and transferring extra information is hard * example from work with grad students * leveragin external information is important * this example gets you to wikidata * linked data can then take you further * however you're using and storing data, use a common dictionary * wikidata is a good dictionary, good to use, link and modify * http://vmext.wmflabs.org/ASTRenderer * Moritz: we also analyzed MathML convertors that can capture semantics * few that could (somehow) describe content mathml * analyzed them further * this project will continue for a few years (since it's Phd projects) * accepted paper: https://www.overleaf.com/13063311bcsyrtvqrdry#/50123989/ * Arno: this looks very interesting * Peter: linked data should be a major consideration in any of this, also for subject/content metadata * Arno: I had only found a few dictionaries * open math, proof wiki * not sure how related * Moritz: not sure; they don't seem connected to any wikibase * Moritz: the good thing about wikidata is that there are actually users * this was rather nice compared to other math projects which usually have few participants and then the lead left and it died * wikidata has thousands of contirubto * Peter: background on terms? * Moritz: wikidata is displayed via a MediaWiki instance * but wikibase is the data repository that drives wikidata (as a data platform) * Peter: random question: are SI units represented? * Moritz: yes but it's complicated * e.g., https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q11379 for energy * has quality allows you to go past has attribute (which requires community vote, you'll have to model that on your end) * with has quality, you can refer to an item which you can add to wikidata yourself (anything you can model in a triple store) * Peter: just a quick word on the workshop since we're out of time * https://aimath.org/workshops/upcoming/webmath/ * many of the CG will be there * AT vendors, a11y experts, publishers, actual mathematicians etc * should give us a lot of input for future work # MathOnWeb 2018-03-15 Present: Arno, Peter Regrets: Neil, Dani, Volker * Arno: working on abstract syntax tree for mathlive * data structure to be parsed and computed on * open question as to in how far I could infer semantics from LaTeX * putting together a spec, hoping for feeback * that might be something interesting for interop * Peter: mathquill etc were interested early on * Arno: Kevin had reached out but was skeptical due to the expressiveness of LaTeX * I'll post a link to the spec after the meeting * Peter: related: heuristics of AT are a mess * I wouldn't even mind if we agreed to them * but that would break a lot of existing content * Arno: different fields have different customs, too * Peter: agreed. It seems more likely to handle this via enrichment into some broader semantic framework * Peter: I was recently looking at MathJax's PreviewHTML output again * it's really quite nice from a pure-CSS perspective * and so easy to tweak the output * Arno: I was surprised how much font-independence I got in mathlive * many element styles are constants (e.g., variable margin) * http://mathlive.io/?debug=on shows some of the output
Received on Friday, 30 March 2018 01:08:10 UTC