Re: [EXTERNAL] Notable mention of rich math applications, "details-on-demand"

Moritz,

I'm interested in how an image in the linked article
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/E%3Dmc%C2%B2-explication.svg/236px-E%3Dmc%C2%B2-explication.svg.png>
was generated. Based on the link name, it seems to have come from svg and
converted to png, but how was the SVG generated? Is there a program that
links the text to the displayed math? E.g, I can imagine something like
   <mi data-annotation="mass">m</mi>
or
   <mi data-annotation-id="someID">m</mi>

or something equivalent involving wrapping <semantics> around each mi and
having some JS or other code connect the pieces. On the other hand, I can
more easily imagine that someone used a drawing tool to add the annotations
and lines to an image of the math.

If the former exists, I'd appreciate a pointer to the tool. If it doesn't
exist, it would be a really cool tool to develop.

    Neil


On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM Physikerwelt <wiki@physikerwelt.de> wrote:

> Hi Deyan,
>
> a nice example. However, can't we represent that with the current
> MathML standard.
>
> For Wikipedia, we have the semantic annotations, e.g., by clicking on
> the first formula in Mass Energy Equivalence you will be redirected to
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence
>
> or
>
> https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:MathWikibase&qid=Q35875
>
> or
>
> https://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:MathWikibase&qid=Q35875
>
> and so on depending on your language preferences. Of course, this is
> supposed to become a popup, but the code review did not go through
> since the js code was a few bytes too heavy.
>
> Eventually, we can translate this into content MathML.
>
>
>     <annotation-xml encoding="MathML-Content" id="e11">
>       <apply id="e12" xref="e2">
>         <eq id="e13" xref="e4"/>
>         <csymbol cd="wikidata" id="e14" xref="e3">Q11379</csymbol>
>         <apply id="e15" xref="e5">
>           <times id="e16" xref="e7"/>
>           <csymbol cd="wikidata" id="e17" xref="e6">Q11423</csymbol>
>           <apply id="e18" xref="e8">
>             <power id="e19" xref="e8"/>
>             <csymbol cd="wikidata" id="e20" xref="e9">Q2111</csymbol>
>             <cs id="e21" xref="e10">the integer number two</cs><!--
> this was somehow a standard violation to demo clear text in the popup
> -->
>           </apply>
>         </apply>
>       </apply>
>     </annotation-xml>
>
> However, not in production since we rely on LaTeXML, and we can not
> run PERL in production WMF sites. We, therefore, use the 'has part'
> property of the related Wikidata item
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q35875.
>
> For more complex formulae like
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:MathWikibase&qid=Q1899432
>
> , the problem is that there were missing symbols, thus we had to
> create new symbols
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q85397895 with unfortunately very few
> semantic connections to more general symbols, and no translations yet.
> Thus these annotations are almost dead ends in the knowledge graph.
>
>
> Greetings
> Moritz
>
> http://moritzschubotz.de | +49 1578 047 1397
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 6:13 AM Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Deyan,
> >
> > I really like the toggle notation/variable feature. I think it is better
> than pop ups for this purpose because you can see the context better. It is
> something that widespread support of MathML will enable because then people
> can count on where something is and could do text layout around the math
> and have the other end of the arrow actually point to somewhere near the
> math symbol/term and know it will work in all the browsers. When the math
> input gets converted to something else such as spans, you can't do that.
> >
> > I'm not a fan of the colorized-math-equations, but maybe people who see
> colors better than I do would like it. I find it way too busy, distracting,
> and hard to read.
> >
> > To follow up on Patrick's link for Euclid's Elements. A friend of mine
> did something for a "live" (colored) version of Euclid's elements where you
> can play around with the diagrams. He published in the Apple App Store.
> It's not free though (it's $6). I've played with it some during development
> and found it quite interesting.
> >
> >     Neil
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 12:28 PM Patrick Ion <pion@umich.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks, Deyan, for bringing a modern document form to
> >> our attention, and not just for the math relevance.
> >>
> >> I can't resist bringing up a bit of history in regard to
> >> colored math.  A significant earlier work was
> >> Oliver Byrne's version of Euclid (which I saw
> >> in Cork), written while he was Surveyor of the
> >> Falkland Islands,
> >>
> >> https://www.c82.net/euclid/
> >> see also
> >> https://www.princeton.edu/~graphicarts/2008/05/euclid_in_color.html
> >>
> >> Note: it really gets going with Book II in using
> >> colored symbols.  You can buy a copy these days:
> >>
> >> https://www.amazon.com/Oliver-Byrne-First-Elements-Euclid/dp/3836544717
> >>
> >> David Joyce (https://mathcs.clarku.edu/~djoyce/)
> >> did his early Java applet-based Euclid with colors in the diagrams
> >> https://mathcs.clarku.edu/~djoyce/java/elements/elements.html
> >>
> >> Then there was the idea discussed years ago at a Paris TeX
> >> meeting of using color to indicate, say, for a Lie group $G$,
> >> its Lie algebra as $\color{green}G$, its enveloping algebra
> >> by $\color{red}G$, its representation ring by $\color{orange}G$
> >> and so on.  I may have seen this style actually used in practice,
> >> but cannot recall a definite reference at present.
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >>
> >>    Patrick
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 9:44 PM Murray Sargent <
> murrays@exchange.microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Very cool stuff. A less difficult way of achieving the pop-up
> annotations of the first link is to put href’s on the variables. Perhaps
> that’s what Bruce and David are doing…
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Murray
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: Deyan Ginev
> >>> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2020 9:25 AM
> >>> To: public-mathml4@w3.org
> >>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Notable mention of rich math applications,
> "details-on-demand"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dear MathML Refresh enthusiasts,
> >>>
> >>> A very pleasing review article was published at DistillPub today,
> >>> examining the various communication aspects of "interactive articles".
> >>>
> >>> In Figure 8 they have a small SVG showcase of a feature some of us
> >>> here have experimented with in the past via MathML, providing a short
> >>> "legend" of each constituent of a math expression.
> >>>
> >>> Pieces of their example directly overlap with our main scope (names
> >>> for dot product, integral over closed surface), and pieces are in the
> >>> gray zone we are currently discussing (q is "the amount of charge in
> >>> coulombs")
> >>>
> >>>
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdistill.pub%2F2020%2Fcommunicating-with-interactive-articles%2F%23details-math&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cmurrays%40exchange.microsoft.com%7C416ae94ca77c4468495908d8566f4e0a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637354383352852160&amp;sdata=RlIcBzOkmBNSBBrfnQkMNL9xn19tJmnhdVCRBXMCcKc%3D&amp;reserved=0
> >>>
> >>> They also linked to a nice older resource I remember, which seemingly
> >>> introduced the didactic technique of coloring math in web documents
> >>> with colored text in parallel:
> >>>
> >>>
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbetterexplained.com%2Farticles%2Fcolorized-math-equations%2F&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cmurrays%40exchange.microsoft.com%7C416ae94ca77c4468495908d8566f4e0a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637354383352852160&amp;sdata=DPD2kOpiBDb6VGEuhjopZUKevR9U1vBGnPG3%2FcqLnIs%3D&amp;reserved=0
> >>>
> >>> One thing to remark is that this "details-on-demand" application is
> >>> out-of-scope for our "a11y semantics" charter. At the same time, the
> >>> application is - at least in my mind - requiring the same "degree of
> >>> annotation" to be enabled, as the minimal requirements are 1) knowing
> >>> the operator structure/content tree and 2) knowing the
> >>> names/properties of the constituent objects. So this may be a
> >>> "sibling" or "cousin" application to the a11y/information retrieval
> >>> applications we've been discussing.
> >>>
> >>> Something to chew on, and wishing everyone a great weekend!
> >>>
> >>> Greetings,
> >>> Deyan
> >>>
> >>>
>