- From: Physikerwelt <wiki@physikerwelt.de>
- Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 23:32:01 +0200
- To: Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>
- Cc: Patrick Ion <pion@umich.edu>, Murray Sargent <murrays@exchange.microsoft.com>, Deyan Ginev <deyan.ginev@gmail.com>, public-mathml4@w3.org
- Message-ID: <CA+fbXr2PEngcygGRiRA0AVv2nEKFi=GNf+LA-L945MGYdw1vKw@mail.gmail.com>
> Hi Neil,
>
>
>
> from what was openly documented it appears that the image was
> originally a PNG generated by
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonasliugaila/ we could asked him which
> tool he did use?
>
>
>
> The PNG was then redrawn as SVG by this guy
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:JTBarnabas
>
> in 2013 and the exact value of c^2 was changed on August 21 this year.
>
>
>
> I am not sure, if I understand the data- annotations, comment. So I
> hope the rest of the email makes sense to you:
>
>
> The complete MathML expression of the example reads.
>
>
>
> '<math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML" alttext="E=mc^{2}"
> display="inline"> <semantics id="e1"> <mrow id="e2" xref="e12">
> <mi id="e3" xref="e14">E</mi> <mo id="e4" xref="e13">=</mo>
> <mrow id="e5" xref="e15"> <mi id="e6" xref="e17">m</mi>
> <mo id="e7" xref="e16"></mo> <msup id="e8" xref="e18">
> <mi id="e9" xref="e20">c</mi> <mn id="e10" xref="e21">2</mn>
> </msup> </mrow> </mrow> <annotation-xml
> encoding="MathML-Content" id="e11"> <apply id="e12" xref="e2">
> <eq id="e13" xref="e4"/> <csymbol cd="wikidata" id="e14"
> xref="e3">Q11379</csymbol> <apply id="e15" xref="e5">
> <times id="e16" xref="e7"/> <csymbol cd="wikidata" id="e17"
> xref="e6">Q11423</csymbol> <apply id="e18" xref="e8">
> <power id="e19" xref="e8"/> <csymbol cd="wikidata"
> id="e20" xref="e9">Q2111</csymbol> <cs id="e21"
> xref="e10">the integer number two</cs> </apply>
> </apply> </apply> </annotation-xml> <annotation
> encoding="application/x-tex" id="e22">E=mc^{2}</annotation>
> </semantics></math>'
>
>
>
> This was generated by LaTeXML and simplified by the node library
> mathml following this idea
>
>
>
> const m = require('./MathML/MathMLReader);
>
> const mml = m(xmlinput);
>
> mml. simplifyIds('e'); (prefix to avoid name clashes for multiple
> formula on one page).
>
>
>
> In javascript your write element.xref to get the xref and you can use
> doc.getElementById(element.xref) to get from presentation to content
> and the other way round. How simple ist that?
>
>
>
> While I can see that element.data-annotation would be somehow less
> complex, I see additional complexity introduced by the proposals that
> try to reassemble the semantic tree in a data attribute that needs a
> special parser. While I can imagine cases where this third tree
> simplifies the applications we are targeting in some cases, I have the
> feeling that gathering information from three trees will be even more
> complicated than from two trees. So as long content-mathml is not
> entirely dead and removed from any future specs I don't see a real
> benefit in making things more complicated.
>
>
>
> Eventually to fetch to localized meanings of the expression, you need
> to query the Wikidata api with your target language. While this can
> not localize canonical MathML there is an open editable mapping
> between the canonical MathML and Wikidata ids exists here
> https://w.wiki/cGQ.
>
> Moritz
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 1:54 AM
> > To: Physikerwelt <wiki@physikerwelt.de>
> > Cc: Patrick Ion <pion@umich.edu>; Murray Sargent
> > <murrays@exchange.microsoft.com>; Deyan Ginev <deyan.ginev@gmail.com>;
> > public-mathml4@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Notable mention of rich math applications,
> > "details-
> > on-demand"
> >
> > Moritz,
> >
> > I'm interested in how an image in the linked article
> > <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/E%3Dmc%C2
> > %B2-explication.svg/236px-E%3Dmc%C2%B2-explication.svg.png> was
> > generated. Based on the link name, it seems to have come from svg and
> > converted to png, but how was the SVG generated? Is there a program that
> > links the text to the displayed math? E.g, I can imagine something like
> > <mi data-annotation="mass">m</mi>
> > or
> > <mi data-annotation-id="someID">m</mi>
> >
> > or something equivalent involving wrapping <semantics> around each mi and
> > having some JS or other code connect the pieces. On the other hand, I can
> > more easily imagine that someone used a drawing tool to add the
> > annotations and lines to an image of the math.
> >
> > If the former exists, I'd appreciate a pointer to the tool. If it doesn't
> > exist, it
> > would be a really cool tool to develop.
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM Physikerwelt <wiki@physikerwelt.de
> > <mailto:wiki@physikerwelt.de> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Deyan,
> >
> > a nice example. However, can't we represent that with the current
> > MathML standard.
> >
> > For Wikipedia, we have the semantic annotations, e.g., by clicking
> on
> > the first formula in Mass Energy Equivalence you will be
> redirected to
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2%80%93energy_equivalence
> >
> > or
> >
> > https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:MathWikibase&qi
> > d=Q35875
> >
> > or
> >
> > https://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:MathWikibase&qi
> > d=Q35875
> >
> > and so on depending on your language preferences. Of course, this
> is
> > supposed to become a popup, but the code review did not go
> > through
> > since the js code was a few bytes too heavy.
> >
> > Eventually, we can translate this into content MathML.
> >
> >
> > <annotation-xml encoding="MathML-Content" id="e11">
> > <apply id="e12" xref="e2">
> > <eq id="e13" xref="e4"/>
> > <csymbol cd="wikidata" id="e14" xref="e3">Q11379</csymbol>
> > <apply id="e15" xref="e5">
> > <times id="e16" xref="e7"/>
> > <csymbol cd="wikidata" id="e17"
> xref="e6">Q11423</csymbol>
> > <apply id="e18" xref="e8">
> > <power id="e19" xref="e8"/>
> > <csymbol cd="wikidata" id="e20"
> xref="e9">Q2111</csymbol>
> > <cs id="e21" xref="e10">the integer number two</cs><!--
> > this was somehow a standard violation to demo clear text in the
> > popup
> > -->
> > </apply>
> > </apply>
> > </apply>
> > </annotation-xml>
> >
> > However, not in production since we rely on LaTeXML, and we can not
> > run PERL in production WMF sites. We, therefore, use the 'has part'
> > property of the related Wikidata item
> > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q35875.
> >
> > For more complex formulae like
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:MathWikibase&qi
> > d=Q1899432
> >
> > , the problem is that there were missing symbols, thus we had to
> > create new symbols
> > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q85397895 with unfortunately very
> > few
> > semantic connections to more general symbols, and no translations
> > yet.
> > Thus these annotations are almost dead ends in the knowledge
> > graph.
> >
> >
> > Greetings
> > Moritz
> >
> > http://moritzschubotz.de | +49 1578 047 1397
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 6:13 AM Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu
> > <mailto:soiffer@alum.mit.edu> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Deyan,
> > >
> > > I really like the toggle notation/variable feature. I think it is
> > better
> > than pop ups for this purpose because you can see the context better. It
> > is
> > something that widespread support of MathML will enable because then
> > people can count on where something is and could do text layout around
> the
> > math and have the other end of the arrow actually point to somewhere near
> > the math symbol/term and know it will work in all the browsers. When the
> > math input gets converted to something else such as spans, you can't do
> > that.
> > >
> > > I'm not a fan of the colorized-math-equations, but maybe people
> > who see colors better than I do would like it. I find it way too busy,
> > distracting, and hard to read.
> > >
> > > To follow up on Patrick's link for Euclid's Elements. A friend
> of mine
> > did something for a "live" (colored) version of Euclid's elements where
> > you
> > can play around with the diagrams. He published in the Apple App Store.
> > It's
> > not free though (it's $6). I've played with it some during development
> and
> > found it quite interesting.
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 12:28 PM Patrick Ion <pion@umich.edu
> > <mailto:pion@umich.edu> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Thanks, Deyan, for bringing a modern document form to
> > >> our attention, and not just for the math relevance.
> > >>
> > >> I can't resist bringing up a bit of history in regard to
> > >> colored math. A significant earlier work was
> > >> Oliver Byrne's version of Euclid (which I saw
> > >> in Cork), written while he was Surveyor of the
> > >> Falkland Islands,
> > >>
> > >> https://www.c82.net/euclid/
> > >> see also
> > >>
> > https://www.princeton.edu/~graphicarts/2008/05/euclid_in_color.html
> > >>
> > >> Note: it really gets going with Book II in using
> > >> colored symbols. You can buy a copy these days:
> > >>
> > >> https://www.amazon.com/Oliver-Byrne-First-Elements-
> > Euclid/dp/3836544717
> > >>
> > >> David Joyce (https://mathcs.clarku.edu/~djoyce/)
> > >> did his early Java applet-based Euclid with colors in the
> diagrams
> > >> https://mathcs.clarku.edu/~djoyce/java/elements/elements.html
> > >>
> > >> Then there was the idea discussed years ago at a Paris TeX
> > >> meeting of using color to indicate, say, for a Lie group $G$,
> > >> its Lie algebra as $\color{green}G$, its enveloping algebra
> > >> by $\color{red}G$, its representation ring by $\color{orange}G$
> > >> and so on. I may have seen this style actually used in
> practice,
> > >> but cannot recall a definite reference at present.
> > >>
> > >> All the best,
> > >>
> > >> Patrick
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 9:44 PM Murray Sargent
> > <murrays@exchange.microsoft.com
> > <mailto:murrays@exchange.microsoft.com> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Very cool stuff. A less difficult way of achieving the pop-up
> > annotations of the first link is to put href’s on the variables. Perhaps
> > that’s
> > what Bruce and David are doing…
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>>
> > >>> Murray
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> From: Deyan Ginev
> > >>> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2020 9:25 AM
> > >>> To: public-mathml4@w3.org <mailto:public-mathml4@w3.org>
> > >>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Notable mention of rich math applications,
> > "details-on-demand"
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Dear MathML Refresh enthusiasts,
> > >>>
> > >>> A very pleasing review article was published at DistillPub
> today,
> > >>> examining the various communication aspects of "interactive
> > articles".
> > >>>
> > >>> In Figure 8 they have a small SVG showcase of a feature some of
> > us
> > >>> here have experimented with in the past via MathML, providing a
> > short
> > >>> "legend" of each constituent of a math expression.
> > >>>
> > >>> Pieces of their example directly overlap with our main scope
> > (names
> > >>> for dot product, integral over closed surface), and pieces are
> in
> > the
> > >>> gray zone we are currently discussing (q is "the amount of
> charge
> > in
> > >>> coulombs")
> > >>>
> > >>>
> >
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdistill.
> > pub%2F2020%2Fcommunicating-with-interactive-articles%2F%23details-
> > math&data=02%7C01%7Cmurrays%40exchange.microsoft.com%7C416ae
> > 94ca77c4468495908d8566f4e0a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0
> > %7C0%7C637354383352852160&sdata=RlIcBzOkmBNSBBrfnQkMNL9xn19t
> > JmnhdVCRBXMCcKc%3D&reserved=0
> > >>>
> > >>> They also linked to a nice older resource I remember, which
> > seemingly
> > >>> introduced the didactic technique of coloring math in web
> > documents
> > >>> with colored text in parallel:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbetter
> > explained.com%2Farticles%2Fcolorized-math-
> > equations%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cmurrays%40exchange.microsoft.com%
> > 7C416ae94ca77c4468495908d8566f4e0a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011d
> > b47%7C0%7C0%7C637354383352852160&sdata=DPD2kOpiBDb6VGEuhjo
> > pZUKevR9U1vBGnPG3%2FcqLnIs%3D&reserved=0
> > >>>
> > >>> One thing to remark is that this "details-on-demand"
> application
> > is
> > >>> out-of-scope for our "a11y semantics" charter. At the same
> time,
> > the
> > >>> application is - at least in my mind - requiring the same
> "degree
> > of
> > >>> annotation" to be enabled, as the minimal requirements are 1)
> > knowing
> > >>> the operator structure/content tree and 2) knowing the
> > >>> names/properties of the constituent objects. So this may be a
> > >>> "sibling" or "cousin" application to the a11y/information
> retrieval
> > >>> applications we've been discussing.
> > >>>
> > >>> Something to chew on, and wishing everyone a great weekend!
> > >>>
> > >>> Greetings,
> > >>> Deyan
> > >>>
> > >>>
> >
>
Received on Tuesday, 15 September 2020 21:32:54 UTC