- From: Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>
- Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 15:16:16 -0700
- To: David Farmer <farmer@aimath.org>
- Cc: public-mathml4@w3.org
- Message-ID: <CAESRWkDW6W7tWuOZP1w_Hzwv322Bh2A1OM7OSe9t+CRGBFkDYg@mail.gmail.com>
I agree that they seemed to have missed the main point and focused on my
second question that involved options/flexibility.
Neil
On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 2:44 PM David Farmer <farmer@aimath.org> wrote:
>
> Is it possible that the Chemistry people completely missed the point
> that we are asking about encoding the meaning of what appears in
> the MathML?
>
> I can see their comments are making sense in the context of advising
> Neil how assistive technology might pronounce "H_2 O". I do not
> see a reasonable argument against marking up the meaning of the
> symbols in a chemical formula. And I can see a lot of reasons for wanting
> to do so.
>
> I can also imagine a hierarchy of ways of pronouncing chemical formulas,
> just like there is for reading mathematics. At one extreme is
> what was written in the shared email: “cap C cap H sub 4” for methane.
> Next might be "C H 4". After that might be "methane". And just like
> in math, the user gets to choose, if the source has been properly
> constructed.
>
> You are reduced to guessing, the exact thing we are trying to avoid,
> if the meaning is not encoded.
>
> On Mon, 14 Sep 2020, Neil Soiffer wrote:
>
> > Since subscripts and superscripts should not be read in a default way,
> at least msub/msup need to be tagged in
> > some way if the base isn't tagged. Because something needs tagging, I do
> think Chemistry needs to be in level 1.
> > Neil
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 1:50 PM Deyan Ginev <deyan.ginev@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Thanks for forwarding Neil!
> >
> > It is indeed curious that they are basically asking for a
> > presentation-tree readout, no need for semantics at all -- even the
> > subscripts are read as-is. If we are to agree with that feedback
> > unconditionally, one wonders if we should be excluding chemistry
> from
> > level 1 entirely, as it won't have any material impact compared to
> raw
> > pMML, and it may get the acceptable level of speech without any
> > additional annotation work.
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Deyan
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 1:07 PM Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > With Cary's permission, I am forwarding this message from the
> Chemistry CG to the MathML mailing
> > list.
> > >
> > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > > From: Supalo, Cary A <csupalo@ets.org>
> > > Date: Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:09 PM
> > > Subject: RE: Request for phone meeting
> > > To: Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Neil,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A small group of chemistry community members met informally last
> week to discuss your request more
> > at length. The following bulleted list of points are what we
> perceive as a starting point for a
> > fruitful discussion on what further disambiguation of chemistry
> terminology is needed to support this
> > collaborative effort between the MathML and the chemistry
> community. We feel and know that without
> > the strong collaboration we have, and without the input from the
> MathML community, it would be a
> > detriment to the print disabled communities. On our initial
> assessment of your request at our last
> > meeting, we have three examples of conventions we would like to
> see fully implemented:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We feel elements and compounds should be read as letters,
> including the designation of the capital
> > letter. Sodium (Na), for example, should be read “cap N a”.
> Chlorine (Cl) as “Cap C l”. Sodium
> > chloride “cap N a cap C l”. Methane (CH4) as “cap C cap H sub 4”.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > With regards to the question regarding elements and compounds
> being read with their proper names we
> > feel is a pedagogical question that should be left up to the
> individual user to decide. If they wish
> > proper names to be spoken by their screen reader, this can be
> enabled by means of the custom language
> > dictionary that is offered by JAWS and NVDA.
> > >
> > > We also feel strongly that units should be read as units. We
> imagine MathML probably already has
> > many unit designations already that we can leverage. Chemistry
> content should be able to benefit from
> > the same unit designations.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Anything that is not disambiguated/defined in our table should
> also be read “as is,” as the letters
> > they are defined.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We hope this clarification is the first step to a lengthier
> discussion on optimization of
> > disambiguation of chemistry content. It was our position all along
> that the table we provided to the
> > MathML group was a first step. We welcome the opportunity to meet
> with you to discuss logical next
> > steps at future meetings. We welcome and highly value this
> collaboration between the chemistry and
> > math ML communities. If you would like to include this type of
> topic as an agenda item for a future
> > Chemistry Community meeting, we are certainly happy to do so.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you very much for your continued support of our community
> where we value your input and
> > feedback highly.
> > >
> > > Cary
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>
> > > Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2020 12:35 AM
> > > To: Supalo, Cary A <csupalo@ets.org>
> > > Cc: Barrett, Dan <Dan.Barrett@hmhco.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Request for phone meeting
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The MathML CG talked about chemistry issues a little this week
> in the context of a larger issue
> > that we are trying to resolve. As I mentioned, a subject area sets
> defaults, so most authors don't
> > need to worry about labelling every token. But there are defaults,
> so every token has a meaning given
> > to it by an attr (currently being called "semantics" but likely
> will change). For chemistry and for
> > that matter, units, the issue came up: how detailed are the attr
> values? For example, do we have
> > semantics="units" or do we have semantics="millimeters", etc. For
> chemistry, is it
> > semantics="element" or semantics="hydrogen", etc. I had thought
> everyone was on board with "unit" and
> > "element", but I was wrong, so this issue needs to be hashed out.
> Because this needs resolution, it
> > probably doesn't make sense to discuss it at the chem CG call this
> week.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There is a question that you or maybe the group can answer... if
> I have NaCl suitably marked up in
> > MathML, should that always be 'spelled out' in speech? If
> sometimes it should be "sodium chloride" in
> > speech and maybe sometimes "salt", who determines that? The
> author? The reader? The answer to that
> > question will inform a discussion about labelling them 'element'
> (which would allow for various forms
> > of speech) vs. specifically labelling them 'hydrogen' or for that
> matter not labeling them at all so
> > that the letters are always just the letters.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
Received on Monday, 14 September 2020 22:16:41 UTC