Minutes: Low Vision Task Force 19 October 2017

online: https://www.w3.org/2017/10/19-lvtf-minutes.html

Text below:

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

            Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

19 Oct 2017

    See also: [2]IRC log

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2017/10/19-lvtf-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Jim, Scott, Shawn, SteveRep, Laura, Glenda, JohnRochford

    Regrets
    Chair
           Jim

    Scribe
           Shawn

Contents

      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]defending 4.5:1
             https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/
      * [5]Summary of Action Items
      * [6]Summary of Resolutions
      __________________________________________________________

    <jimal> [7]https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/

       [7] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/

defending 4.5:1
[8]https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/

       [8] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/

    <laura> Results:

    <laura> Survey
    [9]https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/results#x
    new3

       [9] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Oct_17th_agwg/results#xnew3

    <jimal> techniques - outline-offset

    <JohnRochford> Jim: We have to discuss defending 4.5 to 1.

    <jimal> push the outline-offset 3 px away from the object with
    focus, then you measure the contrast only between the outline
    and the background color

    <JohnRochford> Jim: That should not be that difficult to do.

    <JohnRochford> Jim: I wonder if the outline contrast was one of
    the two, could you really even see it?

    <JohnRochford> Steve: This is just one technique, and there are
    so many others, for 3-way contrast.

    <JohnRochford> Steve: If we are talking about the focus ring
    around something, you could change the color of the button on
    focus.

    <JohnRochford> Steve: It gets confusing in the SC.

    <JohnRochford> Steve: Yes, Jim, if you had a 3-pixel outline in
    a black color, it would be difficult to discriminate from a
    black button.

    <jimal> dashes are easier to see than dotted

    <JohnRochford> Jim: Dashes are easier to discern because there
    is more space between dashes (than there is between dots).

    <JohnRochford> Jim: I don't want this to become a CSS thing
    where users are expected to do this themselves.

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: Testing for 3 CSS pixels is not simple.

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: I suggest we go forward with 3:1, but
    reserve the right to go with 4.5:1.

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: The difficult with pixels is that they
    can't be measured on new monitors.

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: We would have to come up with a
    measuring tool.

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: Developers would have to measure all
    kinds of things with such a tool.

    <JohnRochford> Steve: If it's something that could be done with
    CSS or another technology, I could see how 3 pixels would be
    easy.

    <JohnRochford> Steve: Otherwise, it would be near-impossible to
    do with any accuracy.

    <JohnRochford> Jim: I use a TPG tool, an eye dropper, for
    measurement.

    <laura> Colour Contrast Analyser:
    [10]https://developer.paciellogroup.com/resources/contrastanaly
    ser/

      [10] https://developer.paciellogroup.com/resources/contrastanalyser/

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: It already takes my employees too much
    time to test a page for WCAG 2.0. If we had to use an eye
    dropper too, the burden would be too much.

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: One difference between 4.5:1 and 3:1 is
    that the color pallete is much larger in 4.5:1.

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: When you are reading a page, and are
    glancing across words, the difference between an I and a T is
    very important. When you are looking through a focus indicator,
    you are not speed reading.

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: There's a higher bar for color contrast.

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: We get research between now and Silver
    that explores 4.5:1. My instinct says that the cost of
    implementing 4:5.1 is too great a burden for the effect it
    would have for people with disabilities.

    <JohnRochford> Laura: If we pull back on this one, will we have
    to pull back on color contrast too?

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: I think we would have to pull them back
    in unison.

    <scott> We need good tools to test

    <scott> manual testing won’t scale

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: If it proves difficult to implement, we
    could discuss at the next call.

    <JohnRochford> Scott: Any manual testing is not going to scale.
    Tools could be a solution, but they don't exist yet.

    <JohnRochford> Scott: It's very difficult for me to see mouse
    pointers and focus indicators.

    <jimal> scott - has difficulty finding focus indicators, if you
    make them move like marching ants,

    <JohnRochford> Scott: The size/thickness of the focus
    indicators does help. Color can make a difference. Noticability
    from a distance is important.

    <JohnRochford> Scott: If you are using a border with an
    animation, that would be more noticable than a thicker border.

    <jimal> August Colenbrander - What is adequate under normal
    circumstances, may not be adequate under stress.  **Low vision
    is a form of permanent stress.**

    <JohnRochford> Scott: If there are black borders, they may
    appear as light-blue on LED montiors. That is difficult to see
    unless you get close to the monitor.

    <JohnRochford> Scott: How do you test for that?

    <Zakim> steverep, you wanted to say focus indication has many
    more aspects than "identification"

    <jimal> steve - no proof of text being different from text

    <JohnRochford> Steve: I don't buy that it's harder to read text
    in graphics until I see usability studies.

    <Glenda> no proof of text being different that non-text (need
    for contrast)

    <JohnRochford> Steve: Identifying is different from focus
    indication.

    <jimal> +1 to form controls are very different from focus
    indicator

    <Glenda> Hey Jim, have we filed bugs against the browsers for
    poor color contrast (by default) on focus indicators?

    <jimal> different tools available for changing focus indicators

    <JohnRochford> Steve: Finding a focus indicator, and finding it
    again, is a significant issue.

    <jimal> I believe so. I filed bugs about form controls. don't
    recall focus. will check

    <Glenda> but but but…there is no requirement for a text box to
    have a “box” at all

    <JohnRochford> Steve: I don't want to drop 3:1 for things like
    text being harder to read.

    <JohnRochford> Steve: Selection state is much more what I am
    worried about.

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: I am uncomfortable throwing focus
    indication under the bus.

    <JohnRochford> uncomfortable with

    <JohnRochford> Scott: I'm trying to draw a distinction, not
    throw focus indication under the bus.

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: I think that, for keyboard-only users,
    focus indication is very important.

    <JohnRochford> Scott: It all gets back to what you are trying
    to identify: state, contrast, focus.

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: If we are struggling with seeing it, and
    even knowing what to look for, people with cognitive
    disabilities would have even more trouble.

    <JohnRochford> Glenda: The COGA TF is working on a related AAA
    SC.

    <scott> I am not surprised

    <jimal> User agent control: The color(s) of the user interface
    component and any adjacent color(s) are determined by the user
    agent and are not modified by the author.

    <jimal> if the author never touches form controls or focus they
    are off the hook. only if they do a custom border on the form
    or focus do they have to make it right

    If you touch it, then you need to do it right. If you don't,
    then it's a browser issue and you're off the hook.

    (and that will be addressed through Silver)

    <scribe> scribe: Shawn

    <scott> you break it you buy it :)

    Jim: Have techniques for how to deal with focus. Have if you
    don't touch it, no foul. Issue is bear of testing.
    ... Put up to larger community and see how much pushback.
    Although seeming want to get it perfect now (despite enemy of
    good).
    ... Ducks in row for now. Take a break before the next call.

    <scott> bye

    <laura> bye.

    <jimal> join #ag

    trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________

Received on Thursday, 19 October 2017 16:09:30 UTC