RE: Deal with the word "essential" now or tackle it later?

+1 as well.

From: David MacDonald [mailto:david@can-adapt.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 12:07 PM
To: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
Cc: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>; Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>; White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>; Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; public-low-vision-a11y-tf <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Deal with the word "essential" now or tackle it later?

I can live with this change...

Cheers,
David MacDonald



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On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 10:51 AM, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com<mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>> wrote:
+1 to the current draft language.

JF

On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 3:33 AM, Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com<mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hello David and all,

Thank you. I have updated the proposed SC text.
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comment_Summary_1-4-13


Can anyone not live with the current text?

Kindest Regards,

Laura

On Nov 24, 2017 4:25 PM, "David MacDonald" <david@can-adapt.com<mailto:david@can-adapt.com>> wrote:

> I agree with the note, and I can live without "essential". I would in that
> case interpret "content of functionality" to not include minor problems
> that don't interfere with getting the information and using the page ...
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
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> On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 2:21 PM, Laura Carlson <
> laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com<mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Hi David and all,
>>
>> As mentioned on issue 576, based on an evaluation of 67 pages [1]
>> tested between July 25 and August 3, 2017 that included top 50 Alexa
>> pages and some smaller pages, the combined metrics specified in the
>> Adapting Text SC should be feasible in WCAG 2.1 for HTML documents.
>> Spacing is able to adapt without loss of content or functionality
>> across a wide range of sites. In addition, recently 9 mega menus [2]
>> were tested and passed the SC.
>>
>> As you know the Working Group will be going through the implementation
>> process and demonstrating the implementability of all the new SCs. If
>> you know of examples in the wild of text in UI - (e.g. menus, etc)
>> where it would not be possible to meet the SC, please add them to
>> issue 576. We can tag that issue with the "Implementation Follow-up"
>> label to ensure that it is re-reviewed at that point in the process.
>>
>> But with that said, David, could you live with the current text that
>> removes the word "essential", if we added an editor's note such as:
>>
>> "Editors Note: The Working Group seeks examples in the wild of text
>> content outside of blocks of text where it would be impossible to meet
>> this SC. The SC's scope may be narrowed based upon implementation
>> testing."
>>
>> For reference the current proposed SC text [3] reads:
>>
>> <quote>
>> Success Criterion 1.4.13 Text Spacing
>>
>> If the technologies being used allow the user agent [4] to set text
>> [5] style properties [6], then no loss of content or functionality
>> occurs by setting all of the following and by changing no other style
>> property:
>>
>> * Line height (line spacing) to at least 1.5 times the font size;
>> * Spacing underneath paragraphs to at least 2 times the font size;
>> * Letter spacing (tracking) to at least 0.12 times the font size;
>> * Word spacing to at least 0.16 times the font size.
>>
>> <end quote>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Kindest Regards,
>> Laura
>>
>> [1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Results_of_Bookmarklet_Tests_

>> for_Issue_78
>> [2]https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/576#issuecomment-345843140

>> [3] https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comment_Summary_1-4-13#SC_Text

>> [4] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-user-agent

>> [5] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-text

>> [6] https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-style-properties

>>
>> On 11/14/17, David MacDonald <david@can-adapt.com<mailto:david@can-adapt.com>> wrote:
>> >> My concern is that “nothing important is lost” risks making the SC not
>> > reliably testable. I would prefer to avoid such language. By doing so,
>> > accessibility is also enhanced.
>> >
>> > I agree that testability is always a concern. However, without a
>> qualifier,
>> > then any minor artifacts in the transition will fail WCAG. If we remove
>> > essential and don't replace it with another qualifier, then I think it
>> > should be limited to "blocks of text"
>> > https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/576

>> >
>> > We've had 2 reputable commenters who are veteran full time accessibility
>> > professionals and testers, ask that this SC get changed to "Blocks of
>> > Text",
>> >  Jan Richards of the IDRC <https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/551>,
>> and
>> > Aiden
>> > from TD Bank <https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/469>.
>> > I'd like to add my voice to that concern. I was the author of SC 1.4.8
>> in
>> > WCAG 2.0. And the "blocks of text" language was carefully negotiated, I
>> > never could have got through without that. I think we should carefully
>> > consider "Blocks of Text". Without that, there are a lot of variables,
>> and
>> > possible confusion. It might become a stumbling block for the SC in CR.
>> >
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > David MacDonald
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>> > Mobile:  613.806.9005<tel:613.806.9005>
>> >
>> > LinkedIn
>> > <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>> >
>> > twitter.com/davidmacd<http://twitter.com/davidmacd>
>> >
>> > GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>> >
>> > www.Can-Adapt.com<http://www.Can-Adapt.com> <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > *  Adapting the web to all users*
>> > *            Including those with disabilities*
>> >
>> > If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>> > <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>> >
>> > On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 9:37 AM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org<mailto:jjwhite@ets.org>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> My concern is that “nothing important is lost” risks making the SC not
>> >> reliably testable. I would prefer to avoid such language. By doing so,
>> >> accessibility is also enhanced.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david@can-adapt.com<mailto:david@can-adapt.com>]
>> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 14, 2017 9:30 AM
>> >> *To:* Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com<mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>>
>> >> *Cc:* Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>; White, Jason J <
>> >> jjwhite@ets.org<mailto:jjwhite@ets.org>>; Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com<mailto:stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>>;
>> WCAG
>> >> <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
>> >> *Subject:* Re: Deal with the word "essential" now or tackle it later?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I don't think we want to loose the idea that "some" loss of content and
>> >> functionality is acceptable as long as nothing important is lost.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >> David MacDonald
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>> >>
>> >> Mobile:  613.806.9005<tel:613.806.9005> <(613)%20806-9005>
>> >>
>> >> LinkedIn
>> >>
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>> 7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636462666054837
>> 116&sdata=Lir2vskakn6MX2frF8w6y4JbAcCu8fxJ9Qwb9Cgb300%3D&reserved=0>
>> >>
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>> 37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636462666054837116&sdata=Elps11ImTbC
>> Teuk3mmmINFY5H7ANDzaJTZK9gD1liPA%3D&reserved=0>
>> >>
>> >> GitHub
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>> 3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FDavidMacDonald&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%
>> 40ets.org<http://40ets.org>%7C8cdf0413de084479e06408d52b6c3254%7C0ba6e9b760b34
>> fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636462666054837116&sdata=DAmBg
>> c3O%2FNy3QlufeouMu33tedymPTWeOBo%2B1%2BcI6AQ%3D&reserved=0>
>> >>
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>> org%7C8cdf0413de084479e06408d52b6c3254%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f
>> 37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636462666054837116&sdata=KV0lh06nLBD
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>> >>
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 7:57 AM, Laura Carlson <
>> >> laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com<mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi Jason, David, Andrew, Steve, and all,
>> >>
>> >> Regarding the latest proposed adapting text SC text, Jason wrote [1]:
>> >> >> It doesn't eliminate the use of the word "essential", which is not
>> >> >> here
>> >> used in accordance with its WCAG definition.
>> >>
>> >> David wrote [2]:
>> >> > That word is in both proposals so I think we should consider that
>> >> separately... perhaps you can file an issue on github.​
>> >>
>> >> It seems we already have an open issue for Use of "essential" for
>> >> several SCs including adapting text. It is #372 [3].
>> >>
>> >> Andrew, Issue 372 wasn't listed for Adapting Text  SC (or any of the
>> >> others) in your November 6 email [4] so I didn't add to the the Wiki
>> >> page with the rest of proposals for resolving Adapting Text issues
>> >> [5]. Should I add it to the Wiki page? Or should we deal with Issue
>> >> 372 later?
>> >>
>> >> On September 25, Steve commented in Issue 372 regarding the use of the
>> >> word "essential" in the Adapting Text SC. He said [6]:
>> >>
>> >> "The criterion refers to "no loss of essential content or
>> >> functionality". The word seems to have been introduced by @awkawk in a
>> >> comment way back in March [7], but I could not find any rationale for
>> >> its inclusion in the language (i.e. an example of content loss that
>> >> would be acceptable). Given this, and the fact that both Resize Text
>> >> and Zoom Content refer to "loss of content or functionality" without
>> >> using essential, I propose to simply remove the word from this SC."
>> >>
>> >> Andrew and all, would you be able to live with removing the word
>> >> essential from the SC?
>> >>
>> >> Thank you.
>> >>
>> >> Kindest Regards,
>> >> Laura
>> >>
>> >> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017OctDec/0

>> 376.html
>> >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%25>
>> 3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org<http://2Flists.w3.org>%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fw3c-wai-gl%
>> 2F2017OctDec%2F0376.html&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org<http://40ets.org>%7C
>> 8cdf0413de084479e06408d52b6c3254%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6dd
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>> n3zkoFkL6xahJJ4%2BmlC%2F%2FVxkAo%3D&reserved=0>
>> >> [2]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017OctDe

>> c/0374.html
>> >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%25>
>> 3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org<http://2Flists.w3.org>%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fw3c-wai-gl%
>> 2F2017OctDec%2F0374.html&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org<http://40ets.org>%7C
>> 8cdf0413de084479e06408d52b6c3254%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6dd
>> d9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636462666054837116&sdata=cT0UhrvKsF0t5IUWB
>> k8F6xRpIy%2Fqh9ncj7M3%2BxJrS8s%3D&reserved=0>
>> >> [3] https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/372

>> >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%25>
>> 3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag21%2Fissues%2F372&data=
>> 02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org<http://40ets.org>%7C8cdf0413de084479e06408d52b6c32
>> 54%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636462666054
>> 837116&sdata=gagg72um8D90V1Wo59oTQu4pdDddMx19x%2Fn0a413tPk%3D&reserved=0>
>> >> [4] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017OctDec/0

>> 313.html
>> >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%25>
>> 3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org<http://2Flists.w3.org>%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fw3c-wai-gl%
>> 2F2017OctDec%2F0313.html&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org<http://40ets.org>%7C
>> 8cdf0413de084479e06408d52b6c3254%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6dd
>> d9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636462666054837116&sdata=XLm%2FxtYIeB3ZqrZ
>> aYDfGxWvBj0okkd2QUBcL3Vu6%2Fo0%3D&reserved=0>
>> >> [5]
>> >> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Comment_Summary_1-4-13
>> >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%25>
>> 3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org<http://2Fwww.w3.org>%2FWAI%2FGL%2Fwiki%2FComment_Summary_1-4-
>> 13&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org<http://40ets.org>%7C8cdf0413de084479e0
>> 6408d52b6c3254%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C
>> 636462666054837116&sdata=5uk17yXjWGErchrzKJvhwXLoJYne6GDY5U6
>> OZ536r2M%3D&reserved=0>
>> >> [6] https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/372#issuecomment-331950411

>> >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%25>
>> 3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag21%2Fissues%2F372%23issu
>> ecomment-331950411&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org<http://40ets.org>%7C8cd
>> f0413de084479e06408d52b6c3254%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e
>> 9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636462666054837116&sdata=JISpZMF9yF9tGJGJd5Xu
>> 8BhDIqu%2BogD01ukBRb%2BxOmE%3D&reserved=0>
>> >> [7] https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78#issuecomment-289792275

>> >> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%25>
>> 3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag21%2Fissues%2F78%23issue
>> comment-289792275&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org<http://40ets.org>%7C8cd
>> f0413de084479e06408d52b6c3254%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e
>> 9b65%7C0%7C0%7C636462666054837116&sdata=sspSef%2BcIJClGUIh2l
>> OnmT4YzSm4IkJeCJ4YaA1RiZI%3D&reserved=0>
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>> >> --
>> >> Laura L. Carlson
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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