RE: Simplifying popup interference

Laura, you win ;).  I'm a sucker for facts and data...



Perhaps this is also a way to include mandating that I should be able to move my mouse onto the popup (per the adjacency loophole in a previous message).  Consider the following rewrite to tighten things up and distinguish hover vs. focus:



Popup Interference: Except where popup presentation is controlled by the user agent, all of the following are true when popup content is visible:

·       Trigger: Popup content does not render any part of its triggering content invisible.

·       Hover: If a popup is triggered via pointer hover, then the pointer may be moved onto the popup content without loss of visibility.

·       Focus: Popup content remains visible while any of its components, including the trigger, have focus.



Where we define popup as " becomes visible only on pointer hover or focus”.



What’s the score?  What does everyone think?  Any inaccessible gaps?



Steve



-----Original Message-----

From: Laura Carlson [mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com]

Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 3:04 PM

To: Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>

Cc: Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>; public-low-vision-a11y-tf <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>

Subject: Re: Simplifying popup interference



Hi Steve and all,



Steve wrote:



> I could certainly live with bullets how you stated them though because

> of the lack of unnecessary repetition.



Breaking up SC text and adding bullets improves readability.



For example per the Readability Test Tool [1] the proposed sentence [2] has an average grade level of about 16. It should be understood by

21 to 22 year olds.



Detailed results:



* Flesch Kincaid Reading Ease: 26.3

* Flesch Kincaid Grade Level: 18.3

* Gunning Fog Score: 17.4

* SMOG Index: 10.1

* Coleman Liau Index: 13.8

* Automated Readability Index: 19.8



The bulleted list [3] has an average grade level of about 8. It should be understood by 13 to 14 year olds.



Detailed results:



* Flesch Kincaid Reading Ease: 56.9

* Flesch Kincaid Grade Level: 7.7

* Gunning Fog Score: 8

* SMOG Index: 6

* Coleman Liau Index: 11.4

* Automated Readability Index: 5.1



The Nielsen Norman Group explains more about how bullets aid usability in the article, "7 Tips for Presenting Bulleted Lists in Digital Content." [5] In an older study they found "People look at lists with bullets more often than lists without bullets". [6]



Kindest Regards,

Laura



---

[1]

https://www.webpagefx.com/tools/read-able/check.php


[2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Jul/0085.html


[3] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Jul/0084.html


[4] 7 Tips for Presenting Bulleted Lists in Digital Content [5] https://www.nngroup.com/reports/how-people-read-web-eyetracking-evidence/




On 7/21/17, Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote:

> Laura, excellent point about the incorrectness of saying "presented".

> I don't think "modified by the author" is really applicable here

> though unless I'm missing something?  If the only catch is title

> tooltips, the author has no control over the presentation at all.

>

> Regarding using cursor instead of pointer, I initially agreed then had

> to rewrite this reply.  Usually, but not always for sure, "pointer"

> will generically refer to the thing that moves with the mouse, while "cursor"

> refers to the position of the possibly blinking text insertion or

> selection point.  I believe the MATF new guideline is and some

> criteria are using the former, right?

>

> Correcting the exception though with a slight tweak on yours to

> actually mention popups in the exception, maybe:

>

> " Except where the popup presentation is controlled by the user agent,

> popup content does not render any of its triggering content invisible,

> and remains visible while pointer hover or focus is on the popup content."

>

> Where we define popup as " becomes visible only on pointer hover or focus”.

>

> I could certainly live with bullets how you stated them though because

> of the lack of unnecessary repetition.

>

> Steve

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Laura Carlson [mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com]

> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2017 1:00 PM

> To: Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>; Jim Allan

> <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>

> Cc: public-low-vision-a11y-tf <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>

> Subject: Re: Simplifying popup interference

>

> Hi Steve, Jim, and all,

>

> Here is another idea for rewording:

>

> Except where determined by the user agent and not modified by the

> author, popup content

>

> 1. Does not render any of its triggering content invisible.

> 2. Remains visible while pointer hover or focus is on the popup content.

>

> Would we want to consider swapping out the word "pointer" to "cursor"

> to be more generic and cover other types of cursors?

>

> Thanks.

>

> Kindest Regards,

> Laura

>

> On 7/21/17, Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote:

>> Hey Jim,

>>

>> User agent control (e.g. title attribute tooltips) is something I

>> forgot to add, so good catch.

>>

>> Regarding focus inside the popup… First, I was trying to simplify by

>> not saying it needs to stay visible while hover or focus is on the

>> trigger because that’s inherent in the popup, right?  In other words,

>> if it appears on hover or focus of a trigger, then of course it stays

>> visible until that is removed (unless authors are out there building

>> timers into that content…hmm…).

>>

>> But really, I think we need to consider focus within a popup because

>> I find they contain links all the time.  The biggest example is a

>> navigation menu that works only on hover and focus.  Consider this

>> scenario:

>>

>> 1.       Extra content with a few toggles or links appear.

>>

>> 2.       I cannot see it that well so I realize I click down and miss my

>> target, so I move my pointer away before letting the button come up

>> so nothing is activated.

>>

>> 3.       Now focus is inside the popup and not on the trigger, so if the

>> content disappears then I need to start all over again, reorient my

>> vision to the menu, etc.  I only have one chance to get it right.  If

>> it stays visible, I have the chance to correct my mistake much more

>> easily, especially if I don’t need to worry about where my mouse is

>> at that point.

>>

>> I think it was Gmail that used to have a menu where this happened to

>> me all the time.

>>

>> I’m not in favor of elongating the wording to bullets unless it

>> really adds clarity, so assuming you agree with my focus argument,

>> how about

>> just:

>>

>> “Except for popups presented by the user agent, popup content does

>> not render any of its triggering content invisible, and remains

>> visible while pointer hover or focus is on the popup content.”

>>

>> Now that I’m thinking about it again, what if the author creates a

>> popup that doesn’t appear directly adjacent to the trigger?  In that

>> scenario, I’d have no way to move my mouse onto it without it

>> disappearing.  Should we worry about that?  Anyone come across that

>> in practice?

>>

>> Steve

>>

>> From: Jim Allan [mailto:jimallan@tsbvi.edu]

>> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 4:31 PM

>> To: Repsher, Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>

>> Cc: public-low-vision-a11y-tf <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>

>> Subject: Re: Simplifying popup interference

>>

>>

>>

>> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:06 PM, Repsher, Stephen J

>> <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com<mailto:stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>>

>> wrote:

>> ​<snip>​

>>

>>

>> If not, here’s some simplified wording perhaps to restart the engine:

>>

>> Popup Interference:

>> ​​

>> Popup content does not render any of its triggering content

>> invisible, and remains visible while pointer hover or focus is on the popup content.

>>

>> ​Popup Interference:

>> For content that appears on hover or focus, the following are true:

>> 1. ​

>> ​

>> Popup content does not render any of its triggering content invisible

>> 2. Popup content remains visible while the pointer is on the popup

>> content or focus is on the triggering content

>>

>> ​Except where

>>

>>   1.  User agent control: The

>> ​popup is ​

>> determined by the user agent and

>> ​is

>>  not modified by the author

>> ​.​

>> Reworded the second clause to cover different behavior for hover

>> pointer, and focus. Focus would stay on the triggering content and

>> the pointer is free to move around. the only way I can think that

>> focus would get into popup content is if the popup is a modal type window...

>> which is different from popup that are transient. That is, content

>> that does not need a specific close mechanism ([x] on modal windows).

>> The exception covers the "title" attribute popups and pointer

>> obscuring popup

>>

>> Jim

>>

>> And where we define popup as “becomes visible only on pointer hover

>> or focus”.

>>

>> Critique away…

>>

>> Steve

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> --

>> Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator

>> Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired

>> 1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756

>> voice 512.206.9315<tel:(512)%20206-9315>    fax:

>> 512.206.9264<tel:(512)%20206-9264>  http://www.tsbvi.edu/ "We shape

>> our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964

>>

>

>

> --

> Laura L. Carlson

>

>





--

Laura L. Carlson