- From: Leif Warner <abimelech@gmail.com>
- Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 10:52:14 -0700
- To: public-lod@w3.org
- Message-ID: <BANLkTiknD4q8FnnQOyTzQam_T0EZPiTWWg@mail.gmail.com>
You've lost me there - their own example they give on schema.org for RDFa is less verbose than the microdata, and could be made even less so. http://schema.org/docs/datamodel.html What costs are you talking about being incurred? Microdata just looks like RDFa with a couple renames, explicit item scope, and support for prefixes removed. -Leif Warner On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Steve Harris <steve.harris@garlik.com>wrote: > I'm sure that some of these points were relevant at some level, but I > suspect that's not the key reason. > > At some point, the team working on the internal project would have to go to > the divisional CTO and/or CIO in charge of operations and ask permission to > deploy the code on the production systems. They don't give a damn how > interesting the technology is, just want to know how much it's going to cost > in bps of bandwidth, bytes of storage, and microseconds of CPU per page. The > answer for RDFa is probably an order of magnitude higher than the > schema.org format, and could equate to tens of millions of dollars per > year of extra cost, and will show little to no extra revenue (schema.orgv's RDFa), even in the medium term. No chance. > > - Steve > > On 2011-06-17, at 01:02, Mischa Tuffield wrote: > > Hello, > > *excuse a little top-posting before comments coming inline ... > > Great email Harry, I agree with your sentiment that schema.org shouldn't > be perceived as a massive thread to the SW community. If anything I find and > welcome the move, surely it will widen the audience of web-developers > interested in creating and authoring structure data to the web? A lot of > people write code, and work for companies who are heavily reliant on > pleasing Search Engines - SEO is big business. Let users get on with > building stuff with microdata/schema.org, and who knows they might even > come round to using the various W3C SW specs when they find their needs > change, when they find they want to interoperate with data whose primary > focus isn't for human consumption or SEO. > > RDF satisfies more than one use-case, it is more than a SEO tool. > Personally, I make daily use of RDF, http, SPARQL (to name a few) within the > software platform we have built at Garlik (note that I have been too lazy to > use other email address) and it makes sense to us as a business, as we make > good use of developing software without being constrained by a database > schema in a relational database and we can pull in data arbitrarily. In > summary, RDF via GoodRelations in RDFa has shown that the work has made an > impact in the world of Search Engines, RDF/SPARQL is being used to power > applications in a number of companies big and small, RDF is being outputted > by major commercial sales houses, non-computer scientists are using it to > represent their scientific data, governments are using in the shape of > linked data/SPARQL, this is all good stuff ... more than one use-case - > fundamentally engrained with the notion of interoperability and the > standardised representation of data (awesome stuff!). > > I am not trying to have a dig here about microdata or schema.org, or the > technology stack which builds on the aforementioned, I simply don't know > enough about it to comment. I do know that the SW technology stack is > growing strong though, and it is an open technology stack - being an > optimist I feel that open stuff will prevail. > > <snip itemtype="http://example.com/Annotation"/> > <!-- hehe --> > * > * > On 16 Jun 2011, at 22:09, Harry Halpin wrote: > > I've been watching the community response to schema.org for the last > bit of time. Overall, I think we should clarify why people are upset. > First, there should be no reason to be upset that the major search > engines went off and created their own vocabularies. According to the > argument of decentralized extensibility, schema.org *exactly* what > Google/Yahoo!/Microsoft are supposed to be doing. It's a > straightfoward site that clearly for how the average Web developer can > use structured data in markup to solve real-world use-cases and > provides examples. That's the entire vision of the Semantic Web, let > a thousand ontologies bloom with no central control. > > > Indeed, I do feel that schema.org has been very explicit about how people > with the given use-case can use their work to solve a real-world problem. > Many people make work out of getting their employer some awesome search > engine love. I went to a news related metadata talk (an rNews one - > fantastic work by the way), and chatting to people from their industry I > noticed how important it was to them. The use-case seemed to boil down to a > standard way to annotate new stories/documents to please search engines to > push eyeballs their way... this is great but I am convinced it is not the > only contribution the SW tech stack has to give to the world. I recall > someone had stats re: numbers of webpages vs numbers of rows in databases in > the world... > > > The reason people are upset are that they didn't use RDFa, but instead > used microdata. One *cannot* argue that Google is ignoring open > standards. RDFa and microdata are *both* Last Call W3C Working Drafts > now. RDFa 1.0 is a spec but only for XHTML 1.0, which is not what most > of the Web uses. Microdata does have RDF parsing bugs, but again, most > developers outside the Semantic Web probably don't care - they want > JSON anyways. > > Form what I understand from tevents where Rich Snippets team has > presented is that RDFa is simply too complicated for ordinary web > developers to use. Google has been deploying Rich Snippets for two > years, claim to have user-studies and have experience with a large > user-base. This user-driven feedback should be taken on board by both > relevant WGs obviously, HTML and RDFa. Designing technology without > user-feedback leads to odd results (for proof, see many of the fun and > exiciting "httpRange-14" discussions). Which is also why many > practical developers do not use the technology. > > But realistically, it's not the RDFa WG's job to do user-studies and > build compelling user-experiences in products. They are only a few > people. Why has the *hundreds* of people in the Semantic Web community > not done such work? > > > I think it is probably due to the fact that no one in the Semantic Web > community runs a search engine! > > > The fact of the matter is that the Semantic Web academic community has > had their priorities skewed to the wrong direction. Had folks been > spending time doing usability testing and focussing on user-feedback > on common problems (such as the rather obvious "vocabulary hosting" > problem) rather than focussing on things with little to no support > with the world outside academia, then we probably would not be in the > situation we are in today. Today, major companies such as Microsoft > (oData) and Google (microdata) are jumping on the "open data" > bandwagon but finding the RDF stack unacceptable. Some of it may be a > "not invented here" syndrome, but as anyone who has actually looked at > RDF/XML can tell you, some of it is hard-to-deny technical reasoning > by companies that have decided that "open data" is a great market but > do not agree with the technical choices made by the Semantic Web > stack. > > > Here is where I am not sure I 100% agree with you. Lots of good work has > come out of academia, user-studies are one thing, and agreed UX hasn't been > a forte in our community - but I don't think this was the problem. I > personally don't imagine that schema.org was designed like it is due to > the fact that they have noticed our community bang on about that number14 > for so long. I think you hinted at what the real issue was above... > > A lot of the SW tech stack I follow has both in the past and at the present > enjoyed tremendous academic support. For one, Garlik (where I work) has a > core technology team from Southampton Uni, mostly from the AKT (when I was > ickle [1] <-- lots of familiar faces in there) an EPSRC (UK funding thing) > project which was set out to build SW tech, it worked well, and there are > plenty of others out there to see too am sure. > > So, my disagreement goes, yes so it could be seen that none of the search > engines have found the RDF stack acceptable (RDFa GR seems to have struck a > good cord), but lots of other people have, i.e. not everyone is trying to > tackle the problem of web-search. And the big search engines all have their > priorities and none of them boil down to sharing data. Academic output > hasn't been focused on UI and UX in the SW field, but it has lead to the > solid, open set of standards which lots and lots of people are building on > top of - lets not forget how much XMP there is in the world. I don't think > it is the Search Engines using their vast usability experts to design a > standard for representing generic data, this is not their core business, > they built something which would suit their use-case: making it easy for > web-developers (probably with HTML/CSS/JS/UI skills) to add in metadata to > their pages, so that the search engines can best server their users. > > > This is not to say good things can't come out of the academic > community - the *internet* came out of the academic community. But > seriously, at some point (think of the role of Netscape in getting the > Web going with the magic of images) commercial companies enter the > game. We should be happy now search engines are seeing value in > structured data on the Web. > > > Yes, and trust that our technology stack is built on solid foundations, has > a great vision, and is being built by lots of lovely people, and companies > have been involved for a while (he says...) > > > I would suggest the Semantic Web community take on-board the > "microdata" challenge in two different ways. First of all, start > focussing on user-studies and user experience (not just visual > interfaces, the Semantic Web has more than its share of user-hostile > visual interfaces). It's harder to publish academic papers on these > topics but possible (see SIGCHI), and would help a lot with actual > deployment. Second, we should start focussing more on actual empirical > data-driven feedback, both on what parts of RDF are being used and > common mistakes. With indexes such as the Billion Triple Challenge and > Sindice's index, we can actually do that with the Semantic Web. Third, > why not actually try to get RDF - or "open data more broadly" into the > browser in usable manner? Tabulator may be a step in the right > direction, but the user experience needs work. Fourth, why not start a > company and try to deliver products to actual end-users and give that > feedback to the wider community and W3C WGs (and if you already work > for an actual SemWeb company, please send your feedback from user > studies to the WG before Last Call)? I believe the Semantic Web > research community - which still has tons of funding and lots of > passion - can make the Web better. > > > Use-cases are the key, and am sure there are plenty of them kicking about > as otherwise there wouldn't be so many people working so hard to ensure we > have this open-technology stack in place. > > Indeed Harry you are making the Web better I know it, good on you! But as > is the rest of the SW community, if anything I have enjoyed seeing how > passionate people are open-standards. > > Good night all, > > Mischa > > P.S. All views posted here are of my own personal opinion. > > [1] http://www.aktors.org/people/students/ > > > > Schema.org is not a threat. It's an opportunity to step up. Good luck > everyone! > > cheers, > harry > > P.S.: Note this opinions are purely personal and held as an individual. > > > > -- > Steve Harris, CTO, Garlik Limited > 1-3 Halford Road, Richmond, TW10 6AW, UK > +44 20 8439 8203 http://www.garlik.com/ > Registered in England and Wales 535 7233 VAT # 849 0517 11 > Registered office: Thames House, Portsmouth Road, Esher, Surrey, KT10 9AD > >
Received on Friday, 17 June 2011 17:52:46 UTC