- From: Michael Hausenblas <michael.hausenblas@deri.org>
- Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:14:18 +0100
- To: <martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org>
- CC: <mark.birbeck@webbackplane.com>, David Booth <david@dbooth.org>, Linked Data community <public-lod@w3.org>
Martin, > It was not my intend to insult anybody. Thank you. > And Michael, please be frank - there is a tendency in the LOD community > which goes along the lines of "OWL and DL-minded SW research has proven > obsolete anyway, so we LOD guys and girls just pick and use the bits and > pieces we like and don't care about the rest". Your words, not mine ;) > What made the Web so powerful is that its Architecture is extremely > well-thought underneath the first cover of simplicity. Exactly the > opposite of "I will use this pragmatic pattern until it breaks" but > instead "architectural beauty for eternity". "While simplicity makes it possible to deploy an initial implementation of a distributed system, extensibility allows us to avoid getting stuck forever with the limitations of what was deployed." >From the seminal paper 'Principled Design of the Modern Web Architecture' by Roy T. Fielding and Richard N. Taylor [1]. Agree. Cheers, Michael [1] http://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/pubs/webarch_icse2000.pdf -- Dr. Michael Hausenblas LiDRC - Linked Data Research Centre DERI - Digital Enterprise Research Institute NUIG - National University of Ireland, Galway Ireland, Europe Tel. +353 91 495730 http://linkeddata.deri.ie/ http://sw-app.org/about.html > From: "Martin Hepp (UniBW)" <martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org> > Organization: http://www.heppnetz.de > Reply-To: <martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org> > Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:01:19 +0200 > To: Michael Hausenblas <michael.hausenblas@deri.org> > Cc: <mark.birbeck@webbackplane.com>, David Booth <david@dbooth.org>, Linked > Data community <public-lod@w3.org> > Subject: Re: http://ld2sd.deri.org/lod-ng-tutorial/ > > It was not my intend to insult anybody. But I still don't get why some > of you want to recommend a pattern that breaks with a current W3C > recommendation just on the basis that there are many documents out there > that break with it. The Swoogle post from 2007 simply says that there > are many documents out there that are not using it properly. But there > are also many RDF resources out there that break with LOD principles and > LOD recommendations and nobody would dare to question the principles > solely on the basis of bad implementations. > > And Michael, please be frank - there is a tendency in the LOD community > which goes along the lines of "OWL and DL-minded SW research has proven > obsolete anyway, so we LOD guys and girls just pick and use the bits and > pieces we like and don't care about the rest". > > As Kingsley said - deceptively simple solutions are cheap in the > beginning but can be pretty costly in the long run. > > What made the Web so powerful is that its Architecture is extremely > well-thought underneath the first cover of simplicity. Exactly the > opposite of "I will use this pragmatic pattern until it breaks" but > instead "architectural beauty for eternity". > > Just look at the http specs. The fact that you can do a nice 303 is > because someone in the distant past very cleverly designed a protocol > goes well beyond the pragmatic "I have a URL (sic!) and want to fetch > the Web page in HTML (sic!)". > > So when being proud of being the "pragmatic guys" keep in mind that > nothing is as powerful in practice as something that is theoretically > consistent. > > Best > Martin > > > Michael Hausenblas wrote: >> Martin, >> >> >>> (moving this to LOD public as suggested) >>> >> >> Thanks. >> >> >>> General note: I am quite unhappy with a general movement in parts of the >>> LOD community to clash with the OWL world even when that is absolutely >>> unnecessary. It is just a bad engineering practice to break with >>> existing standards unless you can justify the side-effects. And this >>> stubborn "i don't care what the OWL specs says" pattern is silly, in >>> particular if the real motivation of many proponents of this approach is >>> that they don't want or cannot read the OWL specs. >>> >> >> I don't think it is particular helpful to insult people, to utter >> imputations and judge a book by its cover. If we can agree to stop using >> such terminology I'm more than happy to continue the discussion. >> >> >>> On the other hand - what is your pain with using RDFa in a way so that >>> the extracted RDF model is equivalent to the model from an RDF/XML or N3 >>> serialization? Why this absolutely arbitrary "we LOD guys don't like >>> owl:import ( we don't like OWL anyway, you know?), so we simply omit it" >>> behavior? >>> >>> It is just silly to break with established standards just for saving 1 - >>> 2 triples. >>> >> >> Ok, so, again, for the chaps who didn't get the entire story. Martin >> champions the use of owl:import (and wants to see it written down as a good >> practice?) in linked data. >> >> My take on this is as follows: when one takes the linked data principles and >> applies them in practice (esp. referring to #2, here) there are naturally a >> dozens implementation choices as the principles simply leave room for >> interpretation. >> >> The people here know me from the RDFa TF, from the AWWSW TF and last but not >> least from the LOD community as a simple-minded, pragmatic guy, I hope ;) >> >> So, my hunch would be: the market will make the final decision, not a Martin >> Hepp and also not a Michael Hausenblas. If people think this is a clever >> idea, they will use it when publishing linked data. AFAIK, to date the usage >> of owl:import in linked data is close to non-existing (even in pre-LOD times >> it seemed to be not very common [1]). >> >> Concluding, I'd propose - respecting the nature of good *practice* - once we >> notice a serious usage of owl:import in LOD data, we may want to rehash this >> topic. >> >> Cheers, >> Michael >> >> [1] http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/blogger/2007/06/15/how-owlimport-is-used/ >> >> > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------- > martin hepp > e-business & web science research group > universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen > > e-mail: mhepp@computer.org > phone: +49-(0)89-6004-4217 > fax: +49-(0)89-6004-4620 > www: http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group) > http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal) > skype: mfhepp > twitter: mfhepp > > Check out the GoodRelations vocabulary for E-Commerce on the Web of Data! > ======================================================================== > > Webcast: > http://www.heppnetz.de/projects/goodrelations/webcast/ > > Talk at the Semantic Technology Conference 2009: > "Semantic Web-based E-Commerce: The GoodRelations Ontology" > http://tinyurl.com/semtech-hepp > > Tool for registering your business: > http://www.ebusiness-unibw.org/tools/goodrelations-annotator/ > > Overview article on Semantic Universe: > http://tinyurl.com/goodrelations-universe > > Project page and resources for developers: > http://purl.org/goodrelations/ > > Tutorial materials: > Tutorial at ESWC 2009: The Web of Data for E-Commerce in One Day: A Hands-on > Introduction to the GoodRelations Ontology, RDFa, and Yahoo! SearchMonkey > > http://www.ebusiness-unibw.org/wiki/GoodRelations_Tutorial_ESWC2009 > > > >
Received on Tuesday, 23 June 2009 09:14:59 UTC