- From: Ross Singer <ross.singer@talis.com>
- Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:30:28 +0100
- To: Tom Baker <tbaker@tbaker.de>
- Cc: Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net>, public-lld@w3.org
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:10 PM, Tom Baker <tbaker@tbaker.de> wrote: > Would it help simply to stop saying that the WEMI classes are disjoint? What's the benefit in this? What have I said if I say that this thing is a Work and an Expression (since neither of these exist in nature)? If I am talking about a Book, I'm talking about a Book, not an Expression or Manifestation (although those concepts may be abstractly part of what is a Book). If anything, removing the restrictions seems to dilute the point of bothering with FRBR at all. -Ross. > Stating that Resource X is a Work and then stating that Resource X is an > Expression would be semantically acceptable. A Work description could > potentially be seen as a Work "view" of Resource X while an Expression > description could -- without formal contradiction -- been seen as an Expression > "view" of the same Resource X. What would break? W, E, M, and I descriptions > could still be exposed as separate graphs, so the distributed management of > resource description -- drawing on bits from here and there -- would still be > supported. In other words, one would not need to sacrifice the practical > benefits of FRBR. > > For this to work would of course require consistent data, but this could be > achieved by using the strong OWL ontology or the Application Profile, as > needed, when the data is created. > > The _formal-semantic_ barriers to merging WEMI data with legacy data (with WEMI > entities smushed into a single undifferentiated block) -- or with data that > simply slices up the world differently -- would simply melt away. It would > come down to the classic, and unavoidable, judgement calls about how to > interpret data from a diversity of sources and perspectives. > > Tom > >> Meanwhile, I think that Tom is right in that this "instance" of FRBR >> is designed for a situation with trained catalogers, as well as >> applications that enforce the constraints. It defines a closed >> world. (I'm less sure that the Tillett/Murray definition is more >> open, but I would like it to be.) The AP model might be able to >> create a more open world for it be part of. >> >> kc >> >> Quoting Tom Baker <tbaker@tbaker.de>: >> >> >On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 04:03:20PM +0100, Gordon Dunsire wrote: >> >>> property "is realizer (corporate body) of" is disjoint with properties: >> >>> - has name of the corporate body >> >>> - has number associated with the corporate body >> >>> - has place associated with the corporate body >> >>> - has date associated with the corporate body >> >>> - has other designation associated with the corporate body >> > >> >Okay, so we have [1]: >> > >> > <frbrer:P2012> <rdfs:label> "is realizer (corporate body) of"@en . >> > <frbrer:P2012> <rdfs:range> <frbrer:C1002> . >> > <frbrer:P2012> <rdf:type> <owl:ObjectProperty> . >> > <frbrer:P2012> <rdf:type> <owl:NamedIndividual> . >> > <frbrer:C1002> <rdfs:label> "Expression"@en . >> > <frbrer:C1002> <rdf:type> <owl:Class> . >> > <frbrer:C1002> <rdf:type> <owl:NamedIndividual> . >> > <frbrer:P2012> <rdfs:domain> <frbrer:C1006> . >> > <frbrer:C1006> <rdfs:label> "Corporate Body"@en . >> > <frbrer:C1006> <rdf:type> <owl:Class> . >> > <frbrer:C1006> <rdf:type> <owl:NamedIndividual> . >> > <frbrer:P2012> <owl:propertyDisjointWith> <frbrer:P3045> . >> > <frbrer:P3045> <rdfs:label> "has place associated with the >> >corporate body"@en . >> > <frbrer:P3045> <rdfs:domain> <frbrer:C1006> . >> > <frbrer:P3045> <rdf:type> <owl:NamedIndividual> . >> > >> >and then: >> > >> > <frbrer:P2012> <owl:propertyDisjointWith> <frbrer:P3045> . >> > >> >I'm struggling to see the interoperability gains of putting all >> >these "disjoint >> >property" statements into the definitions of the base vocabulary. Triples >> >about disjointness are 45% of the 3930 triples in [1]. >> > >> >>Property disjointness is given where the value of the object of an instance >> >>triple should not be interpreted as referencing the same thing as for an >> >>instance triple using a different property but with the same subject. >> > >> >As OWL2 puts it: "two properties are disjoint if there are no two individuals >> >that are interlinked by both properties" [2]. I can understand why one would >> >want to apply such precise semantics in controlled environments (e.g., a >> >cataloging department) for the purposes of controlling the quality of data >> >produced, but I do not see the benefit of imposing such strong >> >semantics on the >> >rest of the world by including them in the very definitions of properties and >> >classes. >> > >> >To my way of thinking, the presence of these strong semantics >> >seems to tell the >> >world that nobody should even _think_ of using these vocabularies unless they >> >really really know, understand, and subscribe to the precise interpretation >> >encoded therein and are confident they can apply it correctly (and that >> >speakers of Chinese, Spanish, and Arabic should hope the translations are >> >good). The semantically strong definition seems to imply that these >> >vocabularies are really only intended for use by trained, professional, >> >English-speaking library catalogers using OWL reasoners, and that >> >nobody should >> >even think of building on FRBR with additional properties without >> >defining them >> >with the same high degree of precision. >> > >> >If so, that feels like a missed opportunity, because FRBR is potentially very >> >useful outside of that relatively small world. Defining FRBRer without all >> >this disjointness, on the other hand, would not at all preclude >> >the application >> >of strong interpretations when really needed in specific contexts, such as >> >controlling the output of cataloging departments. >> > >> >In the end, though, I wonder if this strong disjointness is really >> >supported by >> >the FRBR model itself [3]? For example, I read: >> > >> > "On a pragmatic level, defining work as an entity in the model serves a >> > number of purposes. It enables us to give a name and draw >> >relationships to >> > the abstract intellectual or artistic creation that encompasses all the >> > individual expressions of that work. .... It is the entity defined as >> > work, therefore, that provides us with this grouping capability. ... On a >> > practical level, the degree to which bibliographic distinctions are made >> > between variant expressions of a work will depend to some extent on the >> > nature of the work itself, and on the anticipated needs of users and on >> > what the cataloguer can reasonably be expected to recognize from the >> > manifestation being described." >> > >> >In such places, the language of FRBR seems to suggest less a rigid >> >ontology of >> >the world "as it is" and more a set of distinctions that have value because >> >they are useful in a pragmatic sense, e.g., in splitting parts of >> >a description >> >into separate bundles that can be maintained and referenced in a more >> >distributed manner. As Barbara Tillett and Ron Murray put it [4]: >> > >> > E-R and OO modeling may be used effectively to create information systems >> > based on an inventory of "things of interest" and the relationships that >> > exist among them. Unfortunately, the things of interest in Cultural >> > Heritage institutions keep changing and may require redefinition, >> > aggregation, disaggregation, and re-aggregation. E-R and OO modeling as >> > usually practiced are not designed to manage the degree and >> >kind of changes >> > that take place under those circumstances. >> > >> >Their reference to WEMI entities as "sub-graphs" which "reproduce >> >bibliographic >> >characteristics found useful by catalogers, scholars, other educationally >> >oriented end-users, and to varying extents the public in general" -- as >> >"views", or as "groups of statements that occupy different levels of >> >abstraction" -- suggests a more flexible (and useful) basis for a formal >> >expression of FRBR defined, perhaps, more along the lines of minimal semantic >> >commitment. >> > >> >Tom >> > >> >[1] http://triplr.org/ntriples/iflastandards.info/ns/fr/frbr/frbrer/frbrer.rdf >> >[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/REC-owl2-primer-20091027/#a_DisjointObjectProperties >> >[3] http://www.ifla.org/publications/functional-requirements-for-bibliographic-records >> >[4] http://www.ala.org/ala/mgrps/divs/lita/publications/ital/prepub/index.cfm >> > >> >-- >> >Tom Baker <tom@tombaker.org> >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Karen Coyle >> kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net >> ph: 1-510-540-7596 >> m: 1-510-435-8234 >> skype: kcoylenet > > -- > Tom Baker <tom@tombaker.org> > >
Received on Wednesday, 26 October 2011 20:30:57 UTC