- From: Gregg Kellogg <gregg@greggkellogg.net>
- Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:27:08 -0800
- To: Linked JSON <public-linked-json@w3.org>
Thanks to Gregg Kellogg for scribing this week! The minutes for this week’s JSON-LD CG teleconference are now available: https://json-ld.org/minutes/2018-01-22/index.html.
Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Gregg Kellogg
gregg@greggkellogg.net
JSON-LD Community Group Minutes for 2018-01-22
Agenda:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-linked-json/2018Jan/0003.html
Topics:
1. WG Charter
2. issue #569 maps with no keys
Resolutions:
1. Ivan to ask W3M about JSON-LD working group, as okay to send
notice to the AC
2. Use public-linked-json for the discussions of the charter
3. The scope and timing as laid out in the draft charter covers
the work appropriately
4. Accept PR #569, and address concerns in new issues
Organizer:
Gregg Kellogg and Rob Sanderson
Scribe:
Gregg Kellogg and Robert Sanderson
Present:
Niklas Lindström, David I. Lehn, Robert Sanderson, Gregg Kellogg,
Paolo Ciccarese, Ivan Herman, Herm Fisher
Audio:
https://json-ld.github.io/minutes/2018-01-22/audio.ogg
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d3] has joined the conference.
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d5] has joined the conference.
Niklas Lindström: I heard someone but I cannot be heard it seems
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003db] has joined the conference.
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003dd] has joined the conference.
David I. Lehn: I can only lurk on call today, busy working on
something else
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003dd] has left the conference.
Robert Sanderson: Good morning folks :)
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d3], gkellogg
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d5], Niklas Lindström
[SIP/sip2sip.info-000003d8], 15056034108
[SIP/69.65.34.216-000003d9], 18184044708
[SIP/69.65.34.216-000003da], gkellogg
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003db], David Lehn [SIP/6003-000003dc].
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003e0] has joined the conference.
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003e0] has left the conference.
Gregg Kellogg: Voip 03e1 is me
Robert Sanderson: I'm getting tons of echo ... everyone else is
okay? Just my line?
Robert Sanderson: Will reconnect
Sounds distorted and echoing to me (dialed in voice line and on
mute) - Herm
Robert Sanderson: Likewise
Robert Sanderson: Almost incomprehensible
Niklas Lindström: You're line was going crazy [scribe assist by
David I. Lehn]
Niklas Lindström: Can you reconnect? you were ok before [scribe
assist by David I. Lehn]
Niklas Lindström: Sure
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d3], gkellogg
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d5], 18184044708
[SIP/69.65.34.216-000003da], gkellogg
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003db], David Lehn [SIP/6003-000003dc],
Niklas Lindström [SIP/sip2sip.info-000003df], 14156868603
[SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e1], 15056034108
[SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e3].
Niklas Lindström: You have weird crackling feedback [scribe
assist by David I. Lehn]
Niklas Lindström: Still? i lowered my mic volume too now
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d3], gkellogg
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d5], Herm
[SIP/69.65.34.216-000003da], gkellogg
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003db], David Lehn [SIP/6003-000003dc],
gkellogg [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e1], azaroth
[SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e3], Niklas Lindström
[SIP/sip2sip.info-000003e5], Unknown [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e4].
Paolo Ciccarese: Hi with, just joined SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e4 -
with brittle connection and also hearing badly
Niklas Lindström: Sure
Gregg Kellogg is scribing.
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d3], gkellogg
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d5], Herm
[SIP/69.65.34.216-000003da], gkellogg
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003db], David Lehn [SIP/6003-000003dc],
gkellogg [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e1], azaroth
[SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e3], Niklas Lindström
[SIP/sip2sip.info-000003e5], Unknown [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e4].
Minutes from last call:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-linked-json/2018Jan/0001.html
Topic: WG Charter
https://json-ld.github.io/charter/
Robert Sanderson: Over the last couple of weeks we’ve been
talking with Ivan Herman at W3C on forming a WG.
Ivan Herman: My name is Ivan Herman, I’m on the W3C team, and
have a long history with RDF; I was staff contact on the RDF
working group where JSON-LD was standardized, also on RDFa and
Annotations.
Robert Sanderson: We’ve been talking about how to charter a WG
towards a next version of the JSON-LD specs (1.1 or 2.0).
Robert Sanderson: https://json-ld.github.io/charter/
… We started a very draft version of a proposed charter. We
should talk though some things, the first being chairs and
editors.
… There were difficulties with having the same person being
both a chair and an editor at the same time; this creates a
possibility for roles to be confused, so it’s best to avoid the
perception.
… As a result, you’ll notice that Rob is listed as chair, but
does not include gkellogg, who is chair in the CG, but without
gkellogg, there is no continuity in editing the specs.
Ivan Herman: I know there was such a discussion, but it’s a more
general issue, having one person playing too crucial a role. I’ve
been in other groups where there is a similar situation, and
there’s always a dependency on both editors and chairs.
… Having too high a dependency creates practical difficulties.
However, I think this is probably not the most urgent issue.
… For those of you not involved with setting up a WG, we have a
long way ahead; defining another chair can be done in a couple of
weeks.
… The process is such that we should get agreement from W3C
management to start at all. I need to submit a request to W3M and
send a note to the AC with a draft to get feedback.
… The goal is that by the time we get to formal voting, we’ve
sorted out all the issues and voting becomes easier. Of course,
some people wait to object to the end anyway.
… For that to happen, we could do that very quickly, as there
is already a draft charter; it doesn’t need to be fully done, I
think what’s there is pretty much good to go.
… What we need is a decision by this group to go forward. If
you agree, I’ll send the request to W3CM tomorrow.
… The practical step to settle is that we have a github repo,
and people can submit issues there, but there are outliers that
want to use email. We could use existing
public-linked-json@w3.org email address, or set up one
specifically for this purpose.
Robert Sanderson: I imagine that everyone is enthusiastic about
this.
PROPOSAL: Ivan to ask W3M about JSON-LD working group, as okay
to send advance warning/warming to the AC
Gregg Kellogg: +1
Advance notice
Robert Sanderson: +1
Paolo Ciccarese: +1
Niklas Lindström: +1
David I. Lehn: +1
RESOLUTION: Ivan to ask W3M about JSON-LD working group, as okay
to send notice to the AC
… two process questions: can we used a non-W3C Github repo, or
does it need to be a repo within the w3c org.
Ivan Herman: For now, it’s fine, when the formal vote comes,
I’ll need to put the charter text on W3C space.
… For the WG as well, should we continue to use the current
repos, or more to w3c?
Ivan Herman: I think the CSS people use another org, but there
may be practical issues that make using the w3c oranzization
useful.
… If your in a w3c org, most of the team members have access,
so if ivan has a problem, you can get help from someone else.
Just practical issues, nothing required.
… We can settle this later.
Robert Sanderson: We should discuss, so we can move CG work
there too.
Ivan Herman: Are there other discussions that wouldn’t be of CG
interest.
Robert Sanderson: The list isn’t that high a volume that charter
discussions would overwhelm it.
… you may need to agree to IPR requirements to sign up for the
CG mailing list.
… I agree that the visibility of using the CG list is more
valuable than setting up a new list.
PROPOSAL: Use public-linked-json for the discussions of the
charter
Gregg Kellogg: +1
Robert Sanderson: +1
Niklas Lindström: +1
Paolo Ciccarese: +1
Robert Sanderson: Ivan - poll for call times:
https://doodle.com/poll/s634w8ced3264pbx
Ivan Herman: I’ll start the process tomorrow, and put Rob on the
CC list.
RESOLUTION: Use public-linked-json for the discussions of the
charter
Robert Sanderson: Although this time worked for people, there
are some for whom this is late, and there might be another
prefereable time that would be better for people in Europe.
… further on the charter, I mentioned the chair issue, and it
shouldn’t be Gregg.
… Scope is pretty well defined, which boils down to
serialization and API, which would also include framing.
… The serialization spec will include discussions we’re working
on now.
… the last big issue is the bit about splitting out the
JSON-specific bits to enable things like YAML-LD. If we have an
abstract syntax that can be made concrete as JSON-LD, YAML-LD and
whatever else.
Gregg Kellogg: Also worth looking at the time line [scribe
assist by Robert Sanderson]
Robert Sanderson: ... Not sure that we have 18 months of work to
do. Might consider intermediate milestones, and continue work on
something that follows on
Robert Sanderson: ... And how to address that in the timeline
section. If we continue as now, we might have a PR in the first
quarter of next year or earlier
Robert Sanderson: ... Based on 18 month overall, so finish up
about Dec 2019
Robert Sanderson: In my experience, there are several months of
testing and implementation, although may be simpler in our case,
as we have a base of implementations to go on.
… Even so, I think 18 months is right, and we’d rather not file
for an extension.
Herm Fisher: Is there a test-suite?
Robert Sanderson: Part of the process of getting the Rec is that
we must have a test suite, every normative statement must be
tested, and implemented by at least two implementations.
… There is a test suite already for 1.0, which may need to be
updated.
… We may want to pull out the test suite from the current repo.
Gregg Kellogg: Need to look for corner cases not being tested
[scribe assist by Robert Sanderson]
Robert Sanderson: ... One was pointed out this morning for using
none in language maps
Robert Sanderson: ... Having an infrastructure and reasonable
coverage for the features, we're in pretty good shape
Robert Sanderson: ... One issue is that there are some specific
behaviors for looking at redirects and other headers that are
called for in the spec, but make it difficult to run from a
github repo
Robert Sanderson: ... One of the reasons why we used json-ld.org
Robert Sanderson: ... In w3c space, we would need an alternative
way to handle that
Robert Sanderson: In the annotation work, we had a similar
problem. We created a server that could be run locally to do this
as well.
PROPOSAL: The scope and timing as laid out in the draft charter
covers the work appropriately
Robert Sanderson: +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1
Niklas Lindström: +1
Paolo Ciccarese: +1
RESOLUTION: The scope and timing as laid out in the draft charter
covers the work appropriately
Robert Sanderson: Comments can also be done on email.
Robert Sanderson:
https://rawgit.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/maps-with-no-keys/spec/latest/json-ld/index.html#data-indexing
Robert Sanderson: There’s also a doodle poll open.
Robert Sanderson: Issue: #569 maps with no keys
Topic: issue #569 maps with no keys
Robert Sanderson is scribing.
Paolo Ciccarese: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/pull/569
Gregg Kellogg: This resolves an issue with the representation of
values without a language in language maps
... previously it would not select a value without a language
to be used in a language map
... sometimes this is what you want, sometimes it makes it more
difficult
... this PR addresses it for index, id, graph, and type maps to
allow anything to be added to a map with the key `@none`
... (example, per Example 66 etc in the spec)
... all of these are just syntactic, there's no interpretation
in RDF
... the expansion removes the maps
... it complicates the term selection algorithm. We create a
prioritized set of containers to look at
... need to add the data in different places in the algorithm
to prioritize @none when there is a container
... primary cost is the increased complexity and the number of
options to consider during term selection
Robert Sanderson: The value of this is that language is
inconsistently recorded in real data. Language maps are a great
pattern, but it can lead to inconsistent experience in navigating
data when data does not match the pattern. The addition of @none
is quite valuable, as all values can be represented using maps
now. [scribe assist by Gregg Kellogg]
Niklas Lindström: I am in favor of this PR, as I’ve seen similar
use cases. I’m a bit concerned regarding the possibility of using
a term bound with a null language to represent the value of
something without a language in tandom. It is an existing
complication, but I haven’t had time to consider changes to the
PR. [scribe assist by Gregg Kellogg]
Gregg Kellogg: … I don’t think we can change previous
compatibility.
Robert Sanderson: I think backwards compatibility is an open
discussion, but as far as I know, this is the only time where
data would be backwards incompatible. [scribe assist by Gregg
Kellogg]
Gregg Kellogg: We've avoided the use of empty string as a key as
PHP implementations pre 7 have difficulties with it
Paolo Ciccarese: I like the solution in a vacuum, but wondered
about how empty strings are handled. [scribe assist by Gregg
Kellogg]
Paolo Ciccarese: So @none means we have a key
... and an empty string would be a second way to do it
Gregg Kellogg: The algorithm would be treated as a value, and
you'd end up with a value object that had a language and a
language that was empty string, rather than no language at all
... You could do that in RDF (I think)
... so they're not isomorphic
... even if most systems would treat them that way
Gregg Kellogg: … So @none is a way of doing it, but would not be
treated the same way.
Gregg Kellogg: Backwards compatibility ... if you have a term
that allows a language map in 1.0, you would use that for all the
values with a language
... and an absolute URI for things that didn't have a language
... in 1.1 it would go into the map with @none. The issue is
with two different properties, one for language map and one for
language of none
... want to be sure that we'd use a specific term that didn't
match /no/ language, and hence compatible with 1.0
... the failing case is in not using a term at all
... the fallback to absolute IRIs is already broken :)
... if that is an issue we could change the behavior based on
the version, and hence a 1.1 mode processor could do it one way
and a 1.0 processor the current way
... backwards compatible with bugs isn't something I put value
on, personally
Niklas Lindström: I agree that the absolute IRI case doesn’t
seem intentional, I just wanted to reflect on the empty language
tag: I think the lexical representation of language prohibits the
use of an empty language. [scribe assist by Gregg Kellogg]
Gregg Kellogg: … Regarding the empty string, I’m pretty sure that
was a PHP implementation issue which has since been fixed, I
don’t think Python had the issue. Still, I think that the usage
of empty strings as keys is a problem. I’ll likely map @none to
something else.
Robert Sanderson: Any objections on the PR? [scribe assist by
Gregg Kellogg]
Gregg Kellogg: … We can always revisit if issues come up.
PROPOSAL: Accept PR #569
Robert Sanderson: +1
Gregg Kellogg: +Q
Niklas Lindström: +0.5
Gregg Kellogg: +1
Clarification: We'll continue to address issues, but accept the
majority of the change
Niklas Lindström: Thanks all!
RESOLUTION: Accept PR #569, and address concerns in new issues
Received on Monday, 22 January 2018 19:27:35 UTC