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[MINUTES] W3C JSON-LD CG Call 2018-01-22

From: Gregg Kellogg <gregg@greggkellogg.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:27:08 -0800
Message-Id: <0BA95696-7A15-4054-91F4-59384344E3B4@greggkellogg.net>
To: Linked JSON <public-linked-json@w3.org>
Thanks to Gregg Kellogg for scribing this week! The minutes for this week’s JSON-LD CG teleconference are now available: https://json-ld.org/minutes/2018-01-22/index.html.

Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.

Gregg Kellogg
gregg@greggkellogg.net

JSON-LD Community Group Minutes for 2018-01-22

Agenda:
  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-linked-json/2018Jan/0003.html
Topics:
  1. WG Charter
  2. issue #569 maps with no keys
Resolutions:
  1. Ivan to ask W3M about JSON-LD working group, as okay to send 
    notice to the AC
  2. Use public-linked-json for the discussions of the charter
  3. The scope and timing as laid out in the draft charter covers 
    the work appropriately
  4. Accept PR #569, and address concerns in new issues
Organizer:
  Gregg Kellogg and Rob Sanderson
Scribe:
  Gregg Kellogg and Robert Sanderson
Present:
  Niklas Lindström, David I. Lehn, Robert Sanderson, Gregg Kellogg, 
  Paolo Ciccarese, Ivan Herman, Herm Fisher
Audio:
  https://json-ld.github.io/minutes/2018-01-22/audio.ogg

[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d3] has joined the conference.
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d5] has joined the conference.
Niklas Lindström: I heard someone but I cannot be heard it seems
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003db] has joined the conference.
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003dd] has joined the conference.
David I. Lehn: I can only lurk on call today, busy working on 
  something else
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003dd] has left the conference.
Robert Sanderson: Good morning folks :)
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d3], gkellogg 
  [SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d5], Niklas Lindström 
  [SIP/sip2sip.info-000003d8], 15056034108 
  [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003d9], 18184044708 
  [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003da], gkellogg 
  [SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003db], David Lehn [SIP/6003-000003dc].
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003e0] has joined the conference.
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003e0] has left the conference.
Gregg Kellogg: Voip 03e1 is me
Robert Sanderson: I'm getting tons of echo ... everyone else is 
  okay? Just my line?
Robert Sanderson: Will reconnect
Sounds distorted and echoing to me (dialed in voice line and on 
  mute)  - Herm
Robert Sanderson: Likewise
Robert Sanderson: Almost incomprehensible
Niklas Lindström:  You're line was going crazy [scribe assist by 
  David I. Lehn]
Niklas Lindström:  Can you reconnect?  you were ok before [scribe 
  assist by David I. Lehn]
Niklas Lindström: Sure
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d3], gkellogg 
  [SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d5], 18184044708 
  [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003da], gkellogg 
  [SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003db], David Lehn [SIP/6003-000003dc], 
  Niklas Lindström [SIP/sip2sip.info-000003df], 14156868603 
  [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e1], 15056034108 
  [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e3].
Niklas Lindström:  You have weird crackling feedback [scribe 
  assist by David I. Lehn]
Niklas Lindström: Still? i lowered my mic volume too now
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d3], gkellogg 
  [SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d5], Herm 
  [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003da], gkellogg 
  [SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003db], David Lehn [SIP/6003-000003dc], 
  gkellogg [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e1], azaroth 
  [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e3], Niklas Lindström 
  [SIP/sip2sip.info-000003e5], Unknown [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e4].
Paolo Ciccarese: Hi with, just joined SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e4 - 
  with brittle connection and also hearing badly
Niklas Lindström: Sure
Gregg Kellogg is scribing.
[SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d3], gkellogg 
  [SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003d5], Herm 
  [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003da], gkellogg 
  [SIP/sip.linphone.org-000003db], David Lehn [SIP/6003-000003dc], 
  gkellogg [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e1], azaroth 
  [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e3], Niklas Lindström 
  [SIP/sip2sip.info-000003e5], Unknown [SIP/69.65.34.216-000003e4].
Minutes from last call: 
  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-linked-json/2018Jan/0001.html

Topic: WG Charter

https://json-ld.github.io/charter/
Robert Sanderson:  Over the last couple of weeks we’ve been 
  talking with Ivan Herman at W3C on forming a WG.
Ivan Herman:  My name is Ivan Herman, I’m on the W3C team, and 
  have a long history with RDF; I was staff contact on the RDF 
  working group where JSON-LD was standardized, also on RDFa and 
  Annotations.
Robert Sanderson:  We’ve been talking about how to charter a WG 
  towards a next version of the JSON-LD specs (1.1 or 2.0).
Robert Sanderson: https://json-ld.github.io/charter/
  … We started a very draft version of a proposed charter. We 
  should talk though some things, the first being chairs and 
  editors.
  … There were difficulties with having the same person being 
  both a chair and an editor at the same time; this creates a 
  possibility for roles to be confused, so it’s best to avoid the 
  perception.
  … As a result, you’ll notice that Rob is listed as chair, but 
  does not include gkellogg, who is chair in the CG, but without 
  gkellogg, there is no continuity in editing the specs.
Ivan Herman:  I know there was such a discussion, but it’s a more 
  general issue, having one person playing too crucial a role. I’ve 
  been in other groups where there is a similar situation, and 
  there’s always a dependency on both editors and chairs.
  … Having too high a dependency creates practical difficulties. 
  However, I think this is probably not the most urgent issue.
  … For those of you not involved with setting up a WG, we have a 
  long way ahead; defining another chair can be done in a couple of 
  weeks.
  … The process is such that we should get agreement from W3C 
  management to start at all. I need to submit a request to W3M and 
  send a note to the AC with a draft to get feedback.
  … The goal is that by the time we get to formal voting, we’ve 
  sorted out all the issues and voting becomes easier. Of course, 
  some people wait to object to the end anyway.
  … For that to happen, we could do that very quickly, as there 
  is already a draft charter; it doesn’t need to be fully done, I 
  think what’s there is pretty much good to go.
  … What we need is a decision by this group to go forward. If 
  you agree, I’ll send the request to W3CM tomorrow.
  … The practical step to settle is that we have a github repo, 
  and people can submit issues there, but there are outliers that 
  want to use email. We could use existing 
  public-linked-json@w3.org email address, or set up one 
  specifically for this purpose.
Robert Sanderson:  I imagine that everyone is enthusiastic about 
  this.

PROPOSAL:   Ivan to ask W3M about JSON-LD working group, as okay 
  to send advance warning/warming to the AC

Gregg Kellogg: +1
Advance notice
Robert Sanderson: +1
Paolo Ciccarese: +1
Niklas Lindström: +1
David I. Lehn: +1

RESOLUTION: Ivan to ask W3M about JSON-LD working group, as okay 
  to send notice to the AC

  … two process questions: can we used a non-W3C Github repo, or 
  does it need to be a repo within the w3c org.
Ivan Herman:  For now, it’s fine, when the formal vote comes, 
  I’ll need to put the charter text on W3C space.
  … For the WG as well, should we continue to use the current 
  repos, or more to w3c?
Ivan Herman:  I think the CSS people use another org, but there 
  may be practical issues that make using the w3c oranzization 
  useful.
  … If your in a w3c org, most of the team members have access, 
  so if ivan has a problem, you can get help from someone else. 
  Just practical issues, nothing required.
  … We can settle this later.
Robert Sanderson:  We should discuss, so we can move CG work 
  there too.
Ivan Herman:  Are there other discussions that wouldn’t be of CG 
  interest.
Robert Sanderson:  The list isn’t that high a volume that charter 
  discussions would overwhelm it.
  … you may need to agree to IPR requirements to sign up for the 
  CG mailing list.
  … I agree that the visibility of using the CG list is more 
  valuable than setting up a new list.

PROPOSAL:   Use public-linked-json for the discussions of the 
  charter

Gregg Kellogg: +1
Robert Sanderson: +1
Niklas Lindström: +1
Paolo Ciccarese: +1
Robert Sanderson: Ivan - poll for call times: 
  https://doodle.com/poll/s634w8ced3264pbx
Ivan Herman:  I’ll start the process tomorrow, and put Rob on the 
  CC list.

RESOLUTION: Use public-linked-json for the discussions of the 
  charter

Robert Sanderson:  Although this time worked for people, there 
  are some for whom this is late, and there might be another 
  prefereable time that would be better for people in Europe.
  … further on the charter, I mentioned the chair issue, and it 
  shouldn’t be Gregg.
  … Scope is pretty well defined, which boils down to 
  serialization and API, which would also include framing.
  … The serialization spec will include discussions we’re working 
  on now.
  … the last big issue is the bit about splitting out the 
  JSON-specific bits to enable things like YAML-LD. If we have an 
  abstract syntax that can be made concrete as JSON-LD, YAML-LD and 
  whatever else.
Gregg Kellogg:  Also worth looking at the time line [scribe 
  assist by Robert Sanderson]
Robert Sanderson: ... Not sure that we have 18 months of work to 
  do. Might consider intermediate milestones, and continue work on 
  something that follows on
Robert Sanderson: ... And how to address that in the timeline 
  section.  If we continue as now, we might have a PR in the first 
  quarter of next year or earlier
Robert Sanderson: ... Based on 18 month overall, so finish up 
  about Dec 2019
Robert Sanderson:  In my experience, there are several months of 
  testing and implementation, although may be simpler in our case, 
  as we have a base of implementations to go on.
  … Even so, I think 18 months is right, and we’d rather not file 
  for an extension.
Herm Fisher:  Is there a test-suite?
Robert Sanderson:  Part of the process of getting the Rec is that 
  we must have a test suite, every normative statement must be 
  tested, and implemented by at least two implementations.
  … There is a test suite already for 1.0, which may need to be 
  updated.
  … We may want to pull out the test suite from the current repo.
Gregg Kellogg:  Need to look for corner cases not being tested 
  [scribe assist by Robert Sanderson]
Robert Sanderson: ... One was pointed out this morning for using 
  none in language maps
Robert Sanderson: ... Having an infrastructure and reasonable 
  coverage for the features, we're in pretty good shape
Robert Sanderson: ... One issue is that there are some specific 
  behaviors for looking at redirects and other headers that are 
  called for in the spec, but make it difficult to run from a 
  github repo
Robert Sanderson: ... One of the reasons why we used json-ld.org
Robert Sanderson: ... In w3c space, we would need an alternative 
  way to handle that
Robert Sanderson:  In the annotation work, we had a similar 
  problem. We created a server that could be run locally to do this 
  as well.

PROPOSAL:   The scope and timing as laid out in the draft charter 
  covers the work appropriately

Robert Sanderson: +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1
Niklas Lindström: +1
Paolo Ciccarese: +1

RESOLUTION: The scope and timing as laid out in the draft charter 
  covers the work appropriately

Robert Sanderson:  Comments can also be done on email.
Robert Sanderson: 
  https://rawgit.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/maps-with-no-keys/spec/latest/json-ld/index.html#data-indexing
Robert Sanderson:  There’s also a doodle poll open.
Robert Sanderson: Issue: #569 maps with no keys

Topic: issue #569 maps with no keys

Robert Sanderson is scribing.
Paolo Ciccarese: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/pull/569
Gregg Kellogg:  This resolves an issue with the representation of 
  values without a language in language maps
  ... previously it would not select a value without a language 
  to be used in a language map
  ... sometimes this is what you want, sometimes it makes it more 
  difficult
  ... this PR addresses it for index, id, graph, and type maps to 
  allow anything to be added to a map with the key `@none`
  ... (example, per Example 66 etc in the spec)
  ... all of these are just syntactic, there's no interpretation 
  in RDF
  ... the expansion removes the maps
  ... it complicates the term selection algorithm.  We create a 
  prioritized set of containers to look at
  ... need to add the data in different places in the algorithm 
  to prioritize @none when there is a container
  ... primary cost is the increased complexity and the number of 
  options to consider during term selection
Robert Sanderson:  The value of this is that language is 
  inconsistently recorded in real data. Language maps are a great 
  pattern, but it can lead to inconsistent experience in navigating 
  data when data does not match the pattern. The addition of @none 
  is quite valuable, as all values can be represented using maps 
  now. [scribe assist by Gregg Kellogg]
Niklas Lindström:  I am in favor of this PR, as I’ve seen similar 
  use cases. I’m a bit concerned regarding the possibility of using 
  a term bound with a null language to represent the value of 
  something without a language in tandom. It is an existing 
  complication, but I haven’t had time to consider changes to the 
  PR. [scribe assist by Gregg Kellogg]
Gregg Kellogg: … I don’t think we can change previous 
  compatibility.
Robert Sanderson:  I think backwards compatibility is an open 
  discussion, but as far as I know, this is the only time where 
  data would be backwards incompatible. [scribe assist by Gregg 
  Kellogg]
Gregg Kellogg:  We've avoided the use of empty string as a key as 
  PHP implementations pre 7 have difficulties with it
Paolo Ciccarese:  I like the solution in a vacuum, but wondered 
  about how empty strings are handled. [scribe assist by Gregg 
  Kellogg]
Paolo Ciccarese:  So @none means we have a key
  ... and an empty string would be a second way to do it
Gregg Kellogg:  The algorithm would be treated as a value, and 
  you'd end up with a value object that had a language and a 
  language that was empty string, rather than no language at all
  ... You could do that in RDF (I think)
  ... so they're not isomorphic
  ... even if most systems would treat them that way
Gregg Kellogg: … So @none is a way of doing it, but would not be 
  treated the same way.
Gregg Kellogg:  Backwards compatibility ... if you have a term 
  that allows a language map in 1.0, you would use that for all the 
  values with a language
  ... and an absolute URI for things that didn't have a language
  ... in 1.1 it would go into the map with @none. The issue is 
  with two different properties, one for language map and one for 
  language of none
  ... want to be sure that we'd use a specific term that didn't 
  match /no/ language, and hence compatible with 1.0
  ... the failing case is in not using a term at all
  ... the fallback to absolute IRIs is already broken :)
  ... if that is an issue we could change the behavior based on 
  the version, and hence a 1.1 mode processor could do it one way 
  and a 1.0 processor the current way
  ... backwards compatible with bugs isn't something I put value 
  on, personally
Niklas Lindström:  I agree that the absolute IRI case doesn’t 
  seem intentional, I just wanted to reflect on the empty language 
  tag: I think the lexical representation of language prohibits the 
  use of an empty language. [scribe assist by Gregg Kellogg]
Gregg Kellogg: … Regarding the empty string, I’m pretty sure that 
  was a PHP implementation issue which has since been fixed, I 
  don’t think Python had the issue. Still, I think that the usage 
  of empty strings as keys is a problem. I’ll likely map @none to 
  something else.
Robert Sanderson:  Any objections on the PR? [scribe assist by 
  Gregg Kellogg]
Gregg Kellogg: … We can always revisit if issues come up.

PROPOSAL:   Accept PR #569

Robert Sanderson: +1
Gregg Kellogg: +Q
Niklas Lindström: +0.5
Gregg Kellogg: +1
Clarification:  We'll continue to address issues, but accept the 
  majority of the change
Niklas Lindström: Thanks all!

RESOLUTION: Accept PR #569, and address concerns in new issues
Received on Monday, 22 January 2018 19:27:35 UTC

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