Re: [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switching from Gitter to something else

Thanks to Evan for getting this up! https://forum.interledger.org

*Akash Khosla*
Fourth Year EECS
akhosla@berkeley.edu

On Tue, Feb 5th, 2019 at 2:2 PM, AKASH KHOSLA <akhosla@berkeley.edu> wrote:

> 
> This a public forum for participating in Interledger's research efforts,
> including but not limited to:
> * Scaling
> * Load balancing
> * Connector topology
> * Routing
> * Decentralized Exchange
> * Market Making
> * Fee Markets
> * Economics
> * Privacy techniques
> * Custody
> * ILP improvements (pre-RFC)
> 
> 
> 
> This is *not* the place for:
> 
> 
> 
> * Generic crypto and Interledger discussion (use Slack)
> * Discussing specific PRs and in progress RFCs (use GitHub)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Technical questions are ok as long as they are relevant and are
> non-repeats.
> 
> 
> Just don't want to have randos asking about when the next ILP plug-in is
> going to be released on here or "when wallet".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Akash Khosla*
> Fourth Year EECS
> akhosla@berkeley.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Feb 5th, 2019 at 9:13 AM, Evan Schwartz < evan@ripple.com > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> I signed up for a trial Discourse account and submitted the request to
>> have them host it for free because it's for an open source project. I'm
>> waiting to hear back on that and working on getting the DNS set up to
>> point forum.interledger.org ( http://forum.interledger.org ) to it (let me
>> know if anyone feels strongly that the domain should be something else).
>> If they don't approve the free hosting request, we can switch it over to a
>> self-hosted version (and migrate the data).
>> 
>> > Should we use bridging software?
>> 
>> If anyone wants to use it, they would be more than welcome to set it up
>> 
>> > Does it make sense for Discourse to have very clearly defined rules for
>> discussions for enforcing high signal to noise ratio (like on https://ethresear.ch/
>> )?
>> 
>> Possibly; what kind of rules would you envision? (Right now, though, I'm
>> not too worried about having too much discussion. If that becomes a
>> problem, I think we can cross that bridge when we get there)
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 5 2019, at 4:40 am, AKASH KHOSLA < akhosla@berkeley.edu > wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Based on the comments received and talking to people offline I think
>>> what's best going forward is to create a self-hosted Discourse as an
>>> asynchronous forum to replace email, and have the synchronous chat that
>>> replaces Gitter be Discord/Slack. No rocket.chat or niche platforms to
>>> avoid developer overhead.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The only questions are now:
>>> -What subdomain should the Discourse be at? forum.interledger.org? or
>>> disc.interledger.org or research.interledger.org? 
>>> -Does it make sense for Discourse to have very clearly defined rules for
>>> discussions for enforcing high signal to noise ratio (like on https://ethresear.ch/
>>> )? I'm leaning more towards this, and I think that's the most effective
>>> way to use the platform while ensuring the Interledger community steers
>>> toward productive discussions. Early on, we can be lenient about this and
>>> enforce as needed. 
>>> -Should we use bridging software?  ( https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge
>>> ) Note that this is not ideal, because moderation is fragmented, and the
>>> interoperability aspect basically relies on a bot receiving messages from
>>> another client and pushing it to a chat log. You can see the demos on
>>> matterbridge to see what I mean. 
>>> -Assuming money not an issue, it looks like Slack is the preferred way to
>>> do things vs. Discord. Only downside is that Slack's interface for joining
>>> chats is not great (requires an auto-invite tool to be hosted), but I
>>> think that's ok, I've generally had better community experiences through
>>> Slack despite that.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> As long as we have a Discourse that stays with us forever with most of the
>>> valuable information, we can always move our synchronous chat if it ever
>>> becomes a problem.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> *Akash Khosla*
>>> Fourth Year EECS
>>> akhosla@berkeley.edu
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Feb 4th, 2019 at 5:2 PM, Evan Schwartz < evan@ripple.com > wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I like the idea of categorizing the options into synchronous and
>>>> asynchronous communication methods, as proposed in that Rust thread.
>>>> 
>>>> Sync
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> * 
>>>> Current: Gitter
>>>> 
>>>> * 
>>>> Use case: support and, to a lesser extent, design discussion
>>>> 
>>>> * 
>>>> Main problems: low response rate because a) there aren't enough
>>>> contributors who are dedicating time to field issues (myself included) and
>>>> b) few people have Gitter open all the time so checking for new messages
>>>> is an extra step
>>>> 
>>>> * 
>>>> My take: Slack isn't great for open source projects but it is the one that
>>>> most Interledger contributors have sitting open while they're working, so
>>>> if we're optimizing for making sure people get help that might be the best
>>>> one
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Async
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> * 
>>>> Current: Github Issues, Mailing List
>>>> 
>>>> * 
>>>> Use case: design discussion, brainstorming
>>>> 
>>>> * 
>>>> Main problems: Github issue threads get very long and unwieldy, sending
>>>> emails to the mailing list seems too weighty because it spams everyone's
>>>> inbox
>>>> 
>>>> * 
>>>> My take: Discourse might be worth trying out, based on the experience of
>>>> the Rust and Ethereum Research communities, but I'm not sure how different
>>>> the participation would be on that type of forum versus on Github issues
>>>> and PRs.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> PS Thanks Akash for taking the initiative to kick off this discussion!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Feb 4 2019, at 11:49 am, Brian Kerr < brian@kava.io > wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> If we want to expand the community, I definitely would recommend switching
>>>>> to something that isn't forcing people to learn a new app.  Adding the
>>>>> hurdle of that will hurt on-boarding and engagement. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'd recommend slack or discord because most people already have the apps
>>>>> and are familiar with how to use them. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Brian Kerr
>>>>> Co-founder
>>>>> Kava.io
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 04, 2019 at 9:30 AM, David Fuelling < fuelling@ripple.com >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> +1 for Slack. As a 2nd choice I would support 
>>>>>> https://www.discourse.org (0x forum and chat use that and it seems nice).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Agree we need to move off of Gitter.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 3:49 AM Akash Khosla < akhosla@berkeley.edu > wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Gotcha, in that case I'll move the Hyperledger side to bcc to avoid
>>>>>>> confusion - this is focused on the Interledger working group which
>>>>>>> regularly uses Gitter.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 2:30 AM Silona Bonewald < sbonewald@linuxfoundation.org
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Silona the VP of community architecture for Hyperledger here 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'm afraid this is something we cannot change easily. All of the projects
>>>>>>>> at Hyperledger need to be on the same chat system. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Http://Chat.hyperledger.org ( http://Http://Chat.hyperledger.org ) which is
>>>>>>>> rocket chat. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Please follow Ry"s directions earlier about creating an LF ID. A Linux
>>>>>>>> foundation ID.  Hyperledger also is a project under the Linux foundation
>>>>>>>> and we also adhere to some of those standards as well.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As a community and especially quilt bring an interopability tool has to
>>>>>>>> work within the larger community of Hyperledger.  We have a unified
>>>>>>>> standard. You can read up on the Hyperledger project process more on the wiki.hyperledger.org
>>>>>>>> ( http://wiki.hyperledger.org ) 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>>>> Silona
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 3, 2019, 23:25 Daniel Carroll < daniel.carroll@secureblockchains.com
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It would likely be good to have a couple of different platforms. 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I like Discord and Telegram for community chat and general sharing of
>>>>>>>>> information. But both are limited in how you can breakdown information
>>>>>>>>> into categories and maintain a logical history. 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I like Slack and Trello for grouping chunks of data within a team
>>>>>>>>> attempting productivity. 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 3, 2019, at 9:47 PM, Bhaves Shah < bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com >
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I assume when looking at the community at large we want a solution that is
>>>>>>>>>> seccure in nature and also has the feature set to grow as the community
>>>>>>>>>> grows, although cost could be an issue later..
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> You may want to check -  https://flock.com/
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>>>>>>> Bhaves
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 4 Feb 2019, at 10:36 AM, Yuriy Dybskiy < yuriy@dybskiy.com > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Akash, really great proposal!
>>>>>>>>>>> I've been using Discord more and more lately so I'm definitely +1 on that
>>>>>>>>>>> one. 
>>>>>>>>>>> Rocket.chat ( http://rocket.chat/ ) is built with Meteor and I used to be a
>>>>>>>>>>> huge fan of it so I'm +1 on that option as well :)
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Discord might be the easiest to setup and more polished so slight
>>>>>>>>>>> preference there, but long term maybe Rocket.chat ( http://rocket.chat/ ) is
>>>>>>>>>>> a better option.
>>>>>>>>>>> Curious what others think.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 7:02 PM AKASH KHOSLA < akhosla@berkeley.edu > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering if there would be any interest in moving from Gitter to
>>>>>>>>>>>> another platform. The main reason I bring this up is because Gitter could
>>>>>>>>>>>> be out of the way for a lot of us and the application doesn't encourage
>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated usage. Email lists are a bit old school and signing up for the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Interledger one is out of the way. I think the reason for such a cryptic
>>>>>>>>>>>> interface for the w3c style/linux foundation emails list is sybil
>>>>>>>>>>>> resistance and anti-spam since there are liberal write permissions to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> lists. I think scaling the community requires something better than email
>>>>>>>>>>>> and Gitter. Would be great to hear thoughts on this.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Couple problems with Gitter:
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Clunky interface
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Poor separation of conversations/rooms
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bad search function
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bad mobile app
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Some alternatives I think users enjoy using, and are well known in dev
>>>>>>>>>>>> communities:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Rocket.chat ( https://rocket.chat/ )*
>>>>>>>>>>>> Pros:
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Open source chat (basically a friendly IRC replacement)
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Self hosting is free, cloud options available, easy to deploy with scripts
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Slack-like interface
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Good search functionality
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Threads (
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/RocketChat/Rocket.Chat/pull/11803#issuecomment-455963816
>>>>>>>>>>>> ) are being implemented
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Usable mobile applications
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Actively maintained + marketplace integrations
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Can deploy at chat.interledger.org ( http://chat.interledger.org ) (would
>>>>>>>>>>>> be happy to help).
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Easy sign in with GitHub, just like gitter.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cons:
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not as well known as discord, slack or gitter from what I can tell, but I
>>>>>>>>>>>> expect it to continue to grow in usage down the line and gain even more
>>>>>>>>>>>> support than it already has.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Discord*
>>>>>>>>>>>> Pros:
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Commonly used
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Free to use unlike sack
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Fast and friendly
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Solid mobile apps
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Actively maintained
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> No self hosting or maintenance
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Supports integrations
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cons:
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> May not be free forever
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chat logs are owned by Discord
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>>> More complex interface than Slack/Rocket (some colleagues and I describe
>>>>>>>>>>>> it as heavier
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> This list may not be complete in terms of pros and cons so please chime in
>>>>>>>>>>>> if you have a personal preference or have something to say about these
>>>>>>>>>>>> platforms or others. I've spent some time with both alternatives, you can
>>>>>>>>>>>> generally find demos on their corresponding websites to see what you like
>>>>>>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Akash Khosla*
>>>>>>>>>>>> Fourth Year EECS
>>>>>>>>>>>> akhosla@berkeley.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Yuriy @html5cat ( http://twitter.com/html5cat ) Dybskiy
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail: yuriy@dybskiy.com
>>>>>>>>>>> phone: +1 (650) 434-2004
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Dybskiy.com ( http://dybskiy.com ) / Twitter ( http://twitter.com/html5cat
>>>>>>>>>>> ) / GitHub ( http://github.com/html5cat ) / Linkedin (
>>>>>>>>>>> http://ca.linkedin..com/in/dybskiy )
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _._,_._,_
>>>>>>>>> Links:
>>>>>>>>> You receive all messages sent to this group.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> View/Reply Online (#85) ( https://lists.hyperledger.org/g/quilt/message/85
>>>>>>>>> ) | Reply To Sender (
>>>>>>>>> ?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5BHyperledger%20Quilt%5D%20Proposal%3A%20Switching%20from%20Gitter%20to%20something%20else
>>>>>>>>> ) | Reply To Group (
>>>>>>>>> quilt@lists.hyperledger.org?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5BHyperledger%20Quilt%5D%20Proposal%3A%20Switching%20from%20Gitter%20to%20something%20else
>>>>>>>>> ) | Mute This Topic ( https://lists.hyperledger.org/mt/29637867/1540173 ) |
>>>>>>>>> New Topic ( https://lists.hyperledger.org/g/quilt/post )
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Your Subscription ( https://lists.hyperledger.org/g/quilt/editsub/1540173 )
>>>>>>>>> | Contact Group Owner ( quilt+owner@lists.hyperledger.org ) | Unsubscribe (
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.hyperledger.org/g/quilt/unsub ) [ sbonewald@linuxfoundation.org
>>>>>>>>> ]
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _._,_._,_
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
>