Re: [Hyperledger Quilt] Proposal: Switching from Gitter to something else

This a public forum for participating in Interledger's research efforts, including but not limited to:
* Scaling
* Load balancing
* Connector topology
* Routing
* Decentralized Exchange
* Market Making
* Fee Markets
* Economics
* Privacy techniques
* Custody
* ILP improvements (pre-RFC)

This is *not* the place for:

* Generic crypto and Interledger discussion (use Slack)
* Discussing specific PRs and in progress RFCs (use GitHub)

Technical questions are ok as long as they are relevant and are non-repeats.

Just don't want to have randos asking about when the next ILP plug-in is going to be released on here or "when wallet".

*Akash Khosla*
Fourth Year EECS
akhosla@berkeley.edu

On Tue, Feb 5th, 2019 at 9:13 AM, Evan Schwartz <evan@ripple.com> wrote:

> 
> I signed up for a trial Discourse account and submitted the request to
> have them host it for free because it's for an open source project. I'm
> waiting to hear back on that and working on getting the DNS set up to
> point forum.interledger.org ( http://forum.interledger.org ) to it (let me
> know if anyone feels strongly that the domain should be something else).
> If they don't approve the free hosting request, we can switch it over to a
> self-hosted version (and migrate the data).
> 
> > Should we use bridging software?
> 
> If anyone wants to use it, they would be more than welcome to set it up
> 
> > Does it make sense for Discourse to have very clearly defined rules for
> discussions for enforcing high signal to noise ratio (like on https://ethresear.ch/
> )?
> 
> Possibly; what kind of rules would you envision? (Right now, though, I'm
> not too worried about having too much discussion. If that becomes a
> problem, I think we can cross that bridge when we get there)
> 
> 
> On Feb 5 2019, at 4:40 am, AKASH KHOSLA < akhosla@berkeley.edu > wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Based on the comments received and talking to people offline I think
>> what's best going forward is to create a self-hosted Discourse as an
>> asynchronous forum to replace email, and have the synchronous chat that
>> replaces Gitter be Discord/Slack. No rocket.chat or niche platforms to
>> avoid developer overhead.
>> 
>> 
>> The only questions are now:
>> -What subdomain should the Discourse be at? forum.interledger.org? or
>> disc.interledger.org or research.interledger.org? 
>> -Does it make sense for Discourse to have very clearly defined rules for
>> discussions for enforcing high signal to noise ratio (like on https://ethresear.ch/
>> )? I'm leaning more towards this, and I think that's the most effective
>> way to use the platform while ensuring the Interledger community steers
>> toward productive discussions. Early on, we can be lenient about this and
>> enforce as needed. 
>> -Should we use bridging software?  ( https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge
>> ) Note that this is not ideal, because moderation is fragmented, and the
>> interoperability aspect basically relies on a bot receiving messages from
>> another client and pushing it to a chat log. You can see the demos on
>> matterbridge to see what I mean. 
>> -Assuming money not an issue, it looks like Slack is the preferred way to
>> do things vs. Discord. Only downside is that Slack's interface for joining
>> chats is not great (requires an auto-invite tool to be hosted), but I
>> think that's ok, I've generally had better community experiences through
>> Slack despite that.
>> 
>> 
>> As long as we have a Discourse that stays with us forever with most of the
>> valuable information, we can always move our synchronous chat if it ever
>> becomes a problem.
>> 
>> 
>> *Akash Khosla*
>> Fourth Year EECS
>> akhosla@berkeley.edu
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Feb 4th, 2019 at 5:2 PM, Evan Schwartz < evan@ripple.com > wrote:
>> 
>>> I like the idea of categorizing the options into synchronous and
>>> asynchronous communication methods, as proposed in that Rust thread.
>>> 
>>> Sync
>>> 
>>> 
>>> * 
>>> Current: Gitter
>>> 
>>> * 
>>> Use case: support and, to a lesser extent, design discussion
>>> 
>>> * 
>>> Main problems: low response rate because a) there aren't enough
>>> contributors who are dedicating time to field issues (myself included) and
>>> b) few people have Gitter open all the time so checking for new messages
>>> is an extra step
>>> 
>>> * 
>>> My take: Slack isn't great for open source projects but it is the one that
>>> most Interledger contributors have sitting open while they're working, so
>>> if we're optimizing for making sure people get help that might be the best
>>> one
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Async
>>> 
>>> 
>>> * 
>>> Current: Github Issues, Mailing List
>>> 
>>> * 
>>> Use case: design discussion, brainstorming
>>> 
>>> * 
>>> Main problems: Github issue threads get very long and unwieldy, sending
>>> emails to the mailing list seems too weighty because it spams everyone's
>>> inbox
>>> 
>>> * 
>>> My take: Discourse might be worth trying out, based on the experience of
>>> the Rust and Ethereum Research communities, but I'm not sure how different
>>> the participation would be on that type of forum versus on Github issues
>>> and PRs.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> PS Thanks Akash for taking the initiative to kick off this discussion!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Feb 4 2019, at 11:49 am, Brian Kerr < brian@kava.io > wrote:
>>> 
>>>> If we want to expand the community, I definitely would recommend switching
>>>> to something that isn't forcing people to learn a new app.  Adding the
>>>> hurdle of that will hurt on-boarding and engagement. 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I'd recommend slack or discord because most people already have the apps
>>>> and are familiar with how to use them. 
>>>> 
>>>> Brian Kerr
>>>> Co-founder
>>>> Kava.io
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Feb 04, 2019 at 9:30 AM, David Fuelling < fuelling@ripple.com >
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> +1 for Slack. As a 2nd choice I would support 
>>>>> https://www.discourse.org (0x forum and chat use that and it seems nice).
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Agree we need to move off of Gitter.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 3:49 AM Akash Khosla < akhosla@berkeley.edu > wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Gotcha, in that case I'll move the Hyperledger side to bcc to avoid
>>>>>> confusion - this is focused on the Interledger working group which
>>>>>> regularly uses Gitter.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 2:30 AM Silona Bonewald < sbonewald@linuxfoundation.org
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Silona the VP of community architecture for Hyperledger here 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'm afraid this is something we cannot change easily. All of the projects
>>>>>>> at Hyperledger need to be on the same chat system. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Http://Chat.hyperledger.org ( http://Http://Chat.hyperledger.org ) which is
>>>>>>> rocket chat. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Please follow Ry"s directions earlier about creating an LF ID. A Linux
>>>>>>> foundation ID.  Hyperledger also is a project under the Linux foundation
>>>>>>> and we also adhere to some of those standards as well.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> As a community and especially quilt bring an interopability tool has to
>>>>>>> work within the larger community of Hyperledger.  We have a unified
>>>>>>> standard. You can read up on the Hyperledger project process more on the wiki.hyperledger.org
>>>>>>> ( http://wiki.hyperledger.org ) 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>>> Silona
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 3, 2019, 23:25 Daniel Carroll < daniel.carroll@secureblockchains.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It would likely be good to have a couple of different platforms. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I like Discord and Telegram for community chat and general sharing of
>>>>>>>> information. But both are limited in how you can breakdown information
>>>>>>>> into categories and maintain a logical history. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I like Slack and Trello for grouping chunks of data within a team
>>>>>>>> attempting productivity. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Feb 3, 2019, at 9:47 PM, Bhaves Shah < bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com >
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I assume when looking at the community at large we want a solution that is
>>>>>>>>> seccure in nature and also has the feature set to grow as the community
>>>>>>>>> grows, although cost could be an issue later..
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> You may want to check -  https://flock.com/
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>>>>>> Bhaves
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 4 Feb 2019, at 10:36 AM, Yuriy Dybskiy < yuriy@dybskiy.com > wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Akash, really great proposal!
>>>>>>>>>> I've been using Discord more and more lately so I'm definitely +1 on that
>>>>>>>>>> one. 
>>>>>>>>>> Rocket.chat ( http://rocket.chat/ ) is built with Meteor and I used to be a
>>>>>>>>>> huge fan of it so I'm +1 on that option as well :)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Discord might be the easiest to setup and more polished so slight
>>>>>>>>>> preference there, but long term maybe Rocket.chat ( http://rocket.chat/ ) is
>>>>>>>>>> a better option.
>>>>>>>>>> Curious what others think.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 7:02 PM AKASH KHOSLA < akhosla@berkeley.edu > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering if there would be any interest in moving from Gitter to
>>>>>>>>>>> another platform. The main reason I bring this up is because Gitter could
>>>>>>>>>>> be out of the way for a lot of us and the application doesn't encourage
>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated usage. Email lists are a bit old school and signing up for the
>>>>>>>>>>> Interledger one is out of the way. I think the reason for such a cryptic
>>>>>>>>>>> interface for the w3c style/linux foundation emails list is sybil
>>>>>>>>>>> resistance and anti-spam since there are liberal write permissions to the
>>>>>>>>>>> lists. I think scaling the community requires something better than email
>>>>>>>>>>> and Gitter. Would be great to hear thoughts on this.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Couple problems with Gitter:
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Clunky interface
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Poor separation of conversations/rooms
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Bad search function
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Bad mobile app
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Some alternatives I think users enjoy using, and are well known in dev
>>>>>>>>>>> communities:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> *Rocket.chat ( https://rocket.chat/ )*
>>>>>>>>>>> Pros:
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Open source chat (basically a friendly IRC replacement)
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Self hosting is free, cloud options available, easy to deploy with scripts
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Slack-like interface
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Good search functionality
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Threads (
>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/RocketChat/Rocket.Chat/pull/11803#issuecomment-455963816
>>>>>>>>>>> ) are being implemented
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Usable mobile applications
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Actively maintained + marketplace integrations
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Can deploy at chat.interledger.org ( http://chat.interledger.org ) (would
>>>>>>>>>>> be happy to help).
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Easy sign in with GitHub, just like gitter.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Cons:
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Not as well known as discord, slack or gitter from what I can tell, but I
>>>>>>>>>>> expect it to continue to grow in usage down the line and gain even more
>>>>>>>>>>> support than it already has.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> *Discord*
>>>>>>>>>>> Pros:
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Commonly used
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Free to use unlike sack
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Fast and friendly
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Solid mobile apps
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Actively maintained
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> No self hosting or maintenance
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Supports integrations
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Cons:
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> May not be free forever
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> Chat logs are owned by Discord
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> * 
>>>>>>>>>>> More complex interface than Slack/Rocket (some colleagues and I describe
>>>>>>>>>>> it as heavier
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> This list may not be complete in terms of pros and cons so please chime in
>>>>>>>>>>> if you have a personal preference or have something to say about these
>>>>>>>>>>> platforms or others. I've spent some time with both alternatives, you can
>>>>>>>>>>> generally find demos on their corresponding websites to see what you like
>>>>>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> *Akash Khosla*
>>>>>>>>>>> Fourth Year EECS
>>>>>>>>>>> akhosla@berkeley.edu
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Yuriy @html5cat ( http://twitter.com/html5cat ) Dybskiy
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> e-mail: yuriy@dybskiy.com
>>>>>>>>>> phone: +1 (650) 434-2004
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Dybskiy.com ( http://dybskiy.com ) / Twitter ( http://twitter.com/html5cat
>>>>>>>>>> ) / GitHub ( http://github.com/html5cat ) / Linkedin (
>>>>>>>>>> http://ca.linkedin..com/in/dybskiy )
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _._,_._,_
>>>>>>>> Links:
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>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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