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Re: Proposal: Switching from Gitter to something else

From: AKASH KHOSLA <akhosla@berkeley.edu>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 01:56:13 -0800
To: "Yuriy Dybskiy" <yuriy@dybskiy.com>, "Daniel Carroll" <daniel.carroll@secureblockchains.com>
Cc: "Bhaves Shah" <bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com>, hyperledger-quilt@lists.hyperledger.org, ledger@ietf.org, public-interledger@w3.org
Message-ID: <5c57f5e43216265b9c000004@polymail.io>
One more thing:

The rust community has dealt with a similar issue: https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/exploring-new-communication-channels/7859

I've found Discord to be good, though it seems to be a mixed bag based on the responses in the Rust thread. However, no one is advocating going back to Gitter or IRC at the very least. Some are suggesting Slack and a few are suggesting other less known clients instead of Discord for various reasons including ToS, non open source chat system, being too gamer focused, etc.

Someone pointed out that Riot.im (Matrix protocol client) is getting a redesign ( https://medium.com/@RiotChat/redesign-experimenters-needed-afa7c2d4c858 ) , and it looks to be much more usable. It's in the testing phase. I like that it uses something similar to the Signal protocol called Matrix and that the Matrix protocol works with bridging ( https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge ). However, the Rust community has chosen Discord for now since it's really easy to onboard and works well on all devices. Might be worth considering given that the experience of Riot was the biggest issue with it.

Maybe we could also try to model off of what the Rust community has done because they have done a really good job at welcoming and retaining really solid talent. Part of that is just the openness of the community (similar to how Ethereum is), but I think the organization of comms is also a big factor.

Their structure seems to be:
- Discourse for implementation and design discussion
- Stack overflow/IRC/Discord for support
- IRC/Discord for real time development discussion
- Other people create their own unofficial chats for their region, etc.

Sorry for the wall of text. This is pretty much all I have to say regarding this proposal.

*Akash Khosla*
Fourth Year EECS
akhosla@berkeley.edu

On Mon, Feb 4th, 2019 at 12:14 AM, AKASH KHOSLA <akhosla@berkeley.edu> wrote:

> 
> Hello all, thanks for the responses!
> 
> 
> @Ry How has overall engagement been for Hyperledger in terms of
> Rocket.chat? Is there something the community is missing that is desired
> from Rocket.chat?
> 
> 
> @Daniel One thing I'll say about Telegram is that I've found it insightful
> for informally discussing ideas, but leaves more to be desired in terms of
> productivity.  It's a giant single log that doesn't scale well for
> code-related issues, managing PRs, etc. Once you reach 100 users in an
> active group, it gets hard to track what's signal vs. noise. This is a
> case where I think having some complexity helps -the nice thing about
> Slack/Discord/Rocket.chat is that they scale for a variety of discussions
> since they integrate DMs, channels, threads, etc. They also have good
> integrations for GitHub.
> 
> 
> I think the main devs on Interledger have more to say in terms of
> productivity than I do, because a good tool is one people want to use, and
> most of them have the answers for many of the questions the community has,
> so it's even more important that a communication tool of choice
> prioritizes that. The ideal solution would be a balance between
> productivity and engaging people, both new and old, with discussion that
> fosters active developments and stronger community. That would mean
> boosting discussions over existing RFCs, how the protocol works, code
> examples and new proposals via code repos or RFCs by alleviating all the
> flaws Gitter + email has. 
> 
> 
> @Bhaves Yes, I think most solutions are secure these days, the most
> crypto-paranoid groups tend to flock toward the Matrix protocol through
> clients like Riot.im. I don't find the user interface particularly
> compelling or engaging but I could be alone on this. The nice thing about
> keeping custody of chat logs is that it's great for searching up past
> questions, and if a platform has ownership over those chat logs, you never
> know what they could charge down the line if the service is free. I'll
> acknowledge that it's unlikely and maybe a risk worth ignoring.
> 
> 
> @Yuriy, I like the idea of Discourse too, because https://ethresear.ch/ is
> a very strong community and newsletters constantly link to posts in here
> because the ideas and proposals allow for people to keep track of
> Ethereum's WiPs. It also makes it very clear what the purpose of the
> community is versus others: 
> https://ethresear.ch/t/read-this-before-posting/8 (
> https://ethresear.ch/t/read-this-before-posting/8 )
> 
> 
> "This is *not* the place for:
> 
> 
> 
> * generic ethereum discussion. For that visit r/ethereum (
> https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum )
> * discussing specific EIPs. For that visit the Ethereum Magicians (
> https://ethereum-magicians.org/ ) forum.
> * technical questions and ELI5s. For that visit the StackExchange (
> https://ethereum.stackexchange.com/ )."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only downside of discourse is poor mobile support, but seems like
> people don't mind that on the ethresear.ch side. I tend to see my friends
> just open a browser tab on mobile for it anyways, because of how great of
> a source of information it is. 
> 
> 
> tl;dr *I'd be in support of something similar for Interledger that focuses
> on research topics and fleshing out new ideas on Discourse, specifically
> separate from a chat space for general questions, code, deployment help
> and community engagement.* However, this might make more sense to add once
> Interledger gets enough activity in its main engagement area (Rocket.chat,
> Discord, etc.)
> 
> 
> One thing to keep in mind is that it's important to minimize the reasons
> for people to not join/leave a community at an early stage since early
> adopters are everything for the future - which is why I think changing the
> platforms for comms can be helpful while the early adopters are more
> tolerant of growing pains. The best time to migrate is soonest too, since
> the expectation is that the community will grow over the next few years
> and it gets harder to fix these issues later.
> 
> 
> *Akash Khosla*
> Fourth Year EECS
> akhosla@berkeley.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Feb 3rd, 2019 at 10:10 PM, Yuriy Dybskiy < yuriy@dybskiy.com >
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> I think we should also consider https://discourse.org/ then for more async
>> but structured information?
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Yuriy Dybskiy
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 3, 2019, at 9:23 PM, Daniel Carroll < daniel.carroll@secureblockchains.com
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> It would likely be good to have a couple of different platforms. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I like Discord and Telegram for community chat and general sharing of
>>> information. But both are limited in how you can breakdown information
>>> into categories and maintain a logical history. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I like Slack and Trello for grouping chunks of data within a team
>>> attempting productivity. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dan
>>> 
>>> On Feb 3, 2019, at 9:47 PM, Bhaves Shah < bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com >
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> I assume when looking at the community at large we want a solution that is
>>>> seccure in nature and also has the feature set to grow as the community
>>>> grows, although cost could be an issue later..
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> You may want to check -  https://flock.com/
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers!
>>>> Bhaves
>>>> 
>>>> On 4 Feb 2019, at 10:36 AM, Yuriy Dybskiy < yuriy@dybskiy.com > wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Akash, really great proposal!
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've been using Discord more and more lately so I'm definitely +1 on that
>>>>> one. 
>>>>> Rocket.chat is built with Meteor and I used to be a huge fan of it so I'm
>>>>> +1 on that option as well :)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Discord might be the easiest to setup and more polished so slight
>>>>> preference there, but long term maybe Rocket.chat is a better option.
>>>>> Curious what others think.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 7:02 PM AKASH KHOSLA < akhosla@berkeley.edu > wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I was wondering if there would be any interest in moving from Gitter to
>>>>>> another platform. The main reason I bring this up is because Gitter could
>>>>>> be out of the way for a lot of us and the application doesn't encourage
>>>>>> dedicated usage. Email lists are a bit old school and signing up for the
>>>>>> Interledger one is out of the way. I think the reason for such a cryptic
>>>>>> interface for the w3c style/linux foundation emails list is sybil
>>>>>> resistance and anti-spam since there are liberal write permissions to the
>>>>>> lists. I think scaling the community requires something better than email
>>>>>> and Gitter. Would be great to hear thoughts on this.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Couple problems with Gitter:
>>>>>> * Clunky interface
>>>>>> * Poor separation of conversations/rooms
>>>>>> * Bad search function
>>>>>> * Bad mobile app
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Some alternatives I think users enjoy using, and are well known in dev
>>>>>> communities:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> *Rocket.chat ( https://rocket.chat/ )*
>>>>>> Pros:
>>>>>> * Open source chat (basically a friendly IRC replacement)
>>>>>> * Self hosting is free, cloud options available, easy to deploy with
>>>>>> scripts
>>>>>> * Slack-like interface
>>>>>> * Good search functionality
>>>>>> * Threads (
>>>>>> https://github.com/RocketChat/Rocket.Chat/pull/11803#issuecomment-455963816
>>>>>> ) are being implemented
>>>>>> * Usable mobile applications
>>>>>> * Actively maintained + marketplace integrations
>>>>>> * Can deploy at chat.interledger.org ( http://chat.interledger.org ) (would
>>>>>> be happy to help).
>>>>>> * Easy sign in with GitHub, just like gitter.
>>>>>> Cons:
>>>>>> * Not as well known as discord, slack or gitter from what I can tell, but
>>>>>> I expect it to continue to grow in usage down the line and gain even more
>>>>>> support than it already has.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> *
>>>>>> *
>>>>>> *Discord*
>>>>>> Pros:
>>>>>> * Commonly used
>>>>>> * Free to use unlike sack
>>>>>> * Fast and friendly
>>>>>> * Solid mobile apps
>>>>>> * Actively maintained
>>>>>> * No self hosting or maintenance
>>>>>> * Supports integrations
>>>>>> Cons:
>>>>>> * May not be free forever
>>>>>> * Chat logs are owned by Discord
>>>>>> * More complex interface than Slack/Rocket (some colleagues and I describe
>>>>>> it as heavier
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This list may not be complete in terms of pros and cons so please chime in
>>>>>> if you have a personal preference or have something to say about these
>>>>>> platforms or others. I've spent some time with both alternatives, you can
>>>>>> generally find demos on their corresponding websites to see what you like
>>>>>> best.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> *Akash Khosla*
>>>>>> Fourth Year EECS
>>>>>> akhosla@berkeley.edu
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yuriy @html5cat ( http://twitter.com/html5cat ) Dybskiy
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> e-mail: yuriy@dybskiy.com
>>>>> phone: +1 (650) 434-2004
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dybskiy.com ( http://dybskiy.com ) / Twitter ( http://twitter.com/html5cat
>>>>> ) / GitHub ( http://github.com/html5cat ) / Linkedin (
>>>>> http://ca.linkedin.com/in/dybskiy )
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
>
Received on Monday, 4 February 2019 09:56:51 UTC

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