W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-interledger@w3.org > July 2016

Re: holding of funds

From: Andrew Bransford Brown <andrewbb@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 16:25:49 -0500
Message-ID: <CAPS+YF+O+hFOpZdvw8A2xVP-yp_wxxJPSkS_KJ105JhPYDTZZg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Javier Romero <elmurci@gmail.com>, public-interledger@w3.org
FYI, in my opinion, this is something for an in-person discussion.  Legal,
business, and technical people discussing the terminology and rules, while
going through various scenarios.

What is a 3-party legal contract?  That doesn't exist at the moment.  This
is new "law".

Andrew B. Brown
10723 River Plantation Drive
Austin, Texas  78747
(512) 947-8282

On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Andrew Bransford Brown <andrewbb@gmail.com>

> That is the reason we need a standard protocol.  Those examples are all
> internal functions of the application.
> A protocol defines the interface, but does not decide implementation.  The
> Deliver event might be Bitcoin, dollars, or any good/service.  The protocol
> should verify that delivery was made and accepted, regardless of
> implementation.
> For example, I haven't decided how to handle 3rd party escrow services.
> Note the complexity of the legal contract:
> CommerceID     EventType         Description
> Javier         Terms-Escrow      ABC Escrow
> Andrew         Accept
> Computer       Notice            "This is a binding contract, dependent on
> ABC Escrow's acceptance."
> ABC Escrow     Accept
> Computer       Notice            "This is a 3-party legal contract."
> Javier         Deliver           Lasagna
> Andrew         Deliver           $25
> ABC Escrow     Deliver           Lasagna
> ABC Escrow     Deliver           $25
> Computer       Notice            "Contract complete."
> NOTE:  The "Deliver" destinations can be determined entirely via algorithm.
> Andrew B. Brown
> 10723 River Plantation Drive
> Austin, Texas  78747
> (512) 947-8282
> http://linkedin.com/in/keihatsu
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 3:22 PM, Javier Romero <elmurci@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thanks for your responses Andrew!
>> My question was more if rather than just failing the transaction other
>> alternatives had been explored when a legacy ledger doesn't have the
>> capability of *holding/authorise temporarily* funds and just admits
>> confirmed transactions...
>> I guess a plugin sitting on top of the ledger could decide depending on
>> the situation:
>> - If less than a certain value, accept the transaction even if it leaves
>> a negative balance
>> - Use a 3rd party escrow for high values
>> - Just fail the transaction if needed if conditions are not met.
>> - Write a debit movement on the way out and then a credit movement if the
>> payment fails on the way back.
>> - ...
>> On 24 July 2016 at 15:30, Andrew Bransford Brown <andrewbb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> The "Deliver" event would not occur, of course.  You could write an
>>> event to the "transaction stack":
>>> CommerceID     EventType         Description
>>> Andrew         Deliver-Failure   "Insufficient funds"
>>> The API could include a GetContractStatus(transactionID) that would
>>> return ""Undelivered", "Open", or "Partial delivery", or similar.  It would
>>> be up to the application to determine who ships/delivers first.
>>> Andrew B. Brown
>>> 10723 River Plantation Drive
>>> Austin, Texas  78747
>>> (512) 947-8282
>>> http://linkedin.com/in/keihatsu
>>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 5:51 AM, Javier Romero <elmurci@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Thanks Andrew,
>>>> But you would still need some kind of funds holding?
>>>> What would happen if, in your example, Andrew doesn't have enough
>>>> balance of funds at the time the transaction is executed?
>>>> On 24 July 2016 at 02:02, Andrew Bransford Brown <andrewbb@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Javier, good questions.
>>>>> I think the following can be useful for separating implementation from
>>>>> protocol.  This conforms to contract law.  Your questions pertain to the
>>>>> "Deliver" event:
>>>>> *CommerceID EventType Description*
>>>>> Andrew     Offer     $20
>>>>> Andrew     Terms     Lasagna
>>>>> Computer   Notice    "This is an open legal binding offer."
>>>>> Christine  Terms     $25
>>>>> Andrew     Accept
>>>>> Computer   Notice    "This is a binding legal contract."
>>>>> Christine  Deliver   Lasagna
>>>>> Andrew     Deliver   $20
>>>>> Computer   Notice    "Contract complete."
>>>>> The above forms what I call a "transaction stack" of events.  So, it
>>>>> functions as a data structure, a protocol, and potentially a Contract
>>>>> Scripting Language (CSL).  Each event would have a "snippet" to form a
>>>>> smart contract.  It will handle any transaction in any currency (or
>>>>> barter).  I think this can get ALL ledgers to talk the same language (easy
>>>>> to roll this into debits/credits).
>>>>> FYI, I have 20+ years of IT executive and design experience, a degree
>>>>> in Accounting, and a stock trading background.  Comments would be
>>>>> appreciated.
>>>>> Andrew B. Brown
>>>>> 10723 River Plantation Drive
>>>>> Austin, Texas  78747
>>>>> (512) 947-8282
>>>>> http://linkedin.com/in/keihatsu
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Romero, Javier (ISBANUK) <
>>>>> Javier.RomeroColomo@isbanuk.com> wrote:
>>>>>> When the legacy ledger does not have the capability of holding funds,
>>>>>> what would be the proposed solution?
>>>>>>    - Assume the risk in the same way as an offline card transaction
>>>>>>    (depending on amount etc...)?
>>>>>>    - Get the balance at the moment of sending the instruction and
>>>>>>    then, on the way back where all the crypto conditions have been met apply
>>>>>>    the transfer if there are funds or fail it in case there aren't?
>>>>>>    - 3rd party escrow?
>>>>>> I guess each case needs assessment but wanted to see if you guys have
>>>>>> a clear view in this.
>>>>>> Thanks
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>>>>>> Ref:[PDB#015]
Received on Sunday, 24 July 2016 21:26:19 UTC

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