Re: AR Web

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 9:20 PM kevin curry <kmcurry@gmail.com> wrote:

> Glad to be on the same page. Your markup example definitely makes clear
> sense to me
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_kevincurry_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=O8S5EwUfDNs5iuePSaiv1-bHGY8C42oEx4FkBKz27ZY&s=Qi7JTxoKPjmiyM52E9qu7JlsA0UzxmTxtV0fw3br0gs&e=>
> in that context.
>
> By the way, why not ditch the ml- prefix? FBX describes the model's format
> and <model src="..."> should be understood by anything that can render FBX,
> just like <img src="..."> can render JPG, PNG, etc. The ml- prefix inhibits
> interoperability
>

The element names are created by our JavaScript library. They are not meant
to be standardized and are not part of the browser code. (See
See my question in
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-immersive-web/2018Aug/0071.html


> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 11:13 PM Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 5:10 PM kevin curry <kmcurry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I do. There were many examples of what Pete referenced, and they were
>>> all bad. The serious, short answer is evolution. What you are talking about
>>> now, Rik, is no longer the same as what Pete referenced. I think hardware,
>>> perhaps in AR specifically, is the strongest influence. But the scenario
>>> was thought about differently then that what I think you mean now. Then it
>>> was to figure out: how can we get our existing (2D) tools, like web
>>> browsers/pages into our 3D space? Eventually it assumed all of the
>>> functionality of browsers. I mean explicitly, we implemented web browsers
>>> (and other 2D tools) inside 3D worlds. What I think you mean now, Rik, is
>>> an evolved scenario, enabled by much improved AR hardware, handshaking
>>> standards, and possibly some re usability of HTML/CSS between the page and
>>> an augmented space. I'm thinking about it like this - I could be way off:
>>> I'm looking at my phone at a model on Sketchfab. I put on Magic Leap and I
>>> look at the web page. The model I'm looking at in Sketchfab on by browser
>>> is now in the room in front of me.
>>>
>>
>> Correct.
>> For instance, take this small example of HTML from Prismatic:
>>
>> <ml-model src="whale.fbx"
>>
>>    style="width:300px; height:300px"
>>
>>    z-offset="500px"> </ml-model>
>>
>>
>> ml-model is a custom element that is laid out like any regular DOM
>> element. Prismatic will then load and display 'whale.fbx' in the exact
>> location of that element but floating 500px in front of it and sized to the
>> CSS box.
>> When the element scrolls, the model will scroll along with it. If the
>> element scrolls out of view, the model will disappear.
>>
>> This is indeed the reverse of what some people have been working on.
>> (Bring web browsers into 3D)
>> It's conceptually much simpler since we rely on established browser
>> interactions and UI. I believe this also solves a lot of security problems.
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 6:52 PM Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 2:49 PM Pete Markiewicz <pindiespace@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'd have to say - this has already been tried. About 10 years ago,
>>>>> there was a browser (Australian company, but I can't remember the name)
>>>>> that specifically levitated standard HTML elements into the third
>>>>> dimension. Went nowhere.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you remember why?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Josh Carpenter <
>>>>> joshcarpenter@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> > Is it HTML elements in VR that is dead, or decomposable content in
>>>>>> a regular web page? (or both?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Specifically we were investigating the ability to  take a traditional
>>>>>> 2D HTML/CSS page, loaded in a XR viewing context (eg VR HMD), and
>>>>>> progressively enhance it into a 3D composition, by using styles (eg 3D
>>>>>> transforms) to position flat ements in 3D space, beyond the bounds of the
>>>>>> parent window.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The was part of a broader push to explore composable, declarative XR
>>>>>> web layout standards. Distinct from imperative WebXR / WebGL.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s not “dead” per se, as it wasn’t ever really alive. Aside from
>>>>>> some very cool prototypes built on Firefox by my MozVR colleagues back in
>>>>>> 2015 (code that, AFAIK, was never merged to master).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rather, in the past six months our squad has deemed this approach
>>>>>> probably too hard to be worth pursuing, relative to other approaches closer
>>>>>> to what we’re talking about in this thread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 8:15 PM Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 2:54 PM Josh Carpenter <
>>>>>>> joshcarpenter@google.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You might find those links I posted in my initial response
>>>>>>>> interesting, John. I was for a while very enamored with the idea of being
>>>>>>>> able to break page layouts into compositions in 3D space by leveraging CSS
>>>>>>>> 3D transforms. At Moz and Google we built some prototypes that, to my
>>>>>>>> satisfaction at least, demonstrated that the approach was easy for a
>>>>>>>> relatively experienced web designer/dev to work with, and surprisingly
>>>>>>>> compelling/fun. Turn a Vimeo video into a 60 ft screen in VR with a few
>>>>>>>> lines of CSS :) The framework that Diego Marcos and team built to help
>>>>>>>> enable to experiments at Moz was actually a forerunner of A-Frame in some
>>>>>>>> ways. But more recently, based on cumulative discussions with browser
>>>>>>>> engine people, we’ve come to believe that approach would be extremely hard
>>>>>>>> to make work in existing engines, at web scale, and that the much better
>>>>>>>> place to start is composable models in 2D compositions. That’s not to say
>>>>>>>> the dream of HTML elements in 3D space is dead, but more back burnered, at
>>>>>>>> least in my team’s thinking.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is it HTML elements in VR that is dead, or decomposable content in a
>>>>>>> regular web page? (or both?)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can see that bringing HTML in VR would have a lot of landmines
>>>>>>> around security and privacy but decomposable content should not be affected.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 2:30 PM John D. Gwinner <john@gwinner.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> >>Is there a group that is currently working on extending regular
>>>>>>>>> web pages with 3D content?<<
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I had an idea a while ago about extending Wordpress pages into 3D
>>>>>>>>> objects; sort of "spreading" the page around in 3D space, but that's about
>>>>>>>>> all I've done so far. It would suddenly inject a lot of default content
>>>>>>>>> into the world. Sort of a "Minority Report" API (how I explain it to
>>>>>>>>> Hollywood types).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I had a (traditional) publisher that wanted me to cover WordPress
>>>>>>>>> alongside A-Frame and React in my second book (I wrote the book "Getting
>>>>>>>>> Started with React VR[now 360]", but the acquisition editor insisted on
>>>>>>>>> WordPress being covered in the second VR book "because it was another one
>>>>>>>>> of the larger web API's."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It did get me to thinking ... there could be something to that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> == John ==
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> *From:* Rik Cabanier <rcabanier@magicleap.com>
>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 17, 2018 3:23 PM
>>>>>>>>> *To:* public-immersive-web@w3.org
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* AR Web
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> last week at Magic Leap we released our browser Helio.
>>>>>>>>> You can find an overview here:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.magicleap.com/experiences/helio
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As part of its feature set, we created a set of extensions that
>>>>>>>>> allows authors to create and manipulate 3D objects such as animated models
>>>>>>>>> and textures. It also allows extraction so content can be pulled out of the
>>>>>>>>> browser and placed in the user's environment.
>>>>>>>>> To make development easy, we created a library called "Prismatic"
>>>>>>>>> that provides a simple declarative syntax.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We'd like to iterate on our current approach with others vendors
>>>>>>>>> and work towards an open standard that works on 2D, AR and VR devices.
>>>>>>>>> I looked at the current community and working groups but couldn't
>>>>>>>>> find one that covers our current use case.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My questions are:
>>>>>>>>> - Is there a group that is currently working on extending regular
>>>>>>>>> web pages with 3D content?
>>>>>>>>> - If not, is anyone interested in working with us on this?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please let me know if you want more details on our current
>>>>>>>>> implementation. I'm happy to explain.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>   Rik
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Josh Carpenter
>>>>>>>> UX Lead, WebVR/AR
>>>>>>>> Google
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Josh Carpenter
>>>>>> UX Lead, WebVR/AR
>>>>>> Google
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>> =================
>>>>> *Dr. Pete Markiewicz*
>>>>> *Email:* pindiespace@gmail.com
>>>>> *Portfolio:* http://plyojump.com
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__plyojump.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=nobtEJABlN9Iwgv1wZHv3x1KQW1gph6BYfhjhVSBZqU&e=>
>>>>> *Github:* http://github.com/pindiespace
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__github.com_pindiespace&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=Z0jsSqLhFmC7A5JRUAFpZPA8Zk46-mDNMFv0cCUs8Rw&e=>
>>>>> *Linkedin:* http://linkedin.com/in/pindiespace
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__linkedin.com_in_pindiespace&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=z7u1c_tGQ_eUu7qlhnyg9fVfqm0wrWzU-KWE3RnNbSQ&e=>
>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>> =================
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *My "Ux in VR" presentations on Google Docs (note you can
>>>>> comment)WebVR 1.0
>>>>> APIhttps://docs.google.com/presentation/d/13a29m0SbpTeItFP8fjrSoKNb7nsjAd4DC9lWnokWEfg/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>> <https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/13a29m0SbpTeItFP8fjrSoKNb7nsjAd4DC9lWnokWEfg/edit?usp=sharing>Sustainable
>>>>> Ux in
>>>>> VRhttps://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1OTXaz3RuV0HWgM754PRMUC7d2KYVHH974s5hnAt53wk/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>> <https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1OTXaz3RuV0HWgM754PRMUC7d2KYVHH974s5hnAt53wk/edit?usp=sharing>Sustainable
>>>>> virtual design blog:* http://sustainablevirtualdesign.wordpress.com
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__sustainablevirtualdesign.wordpress.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=4fBaHb4RVGTcTLSqhOU-NPYCp_dTpdHG6Vvs8bUf8iA&e=>
>>>>> *Sustainability template:* http://greenboilerplate.com
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__greenboilerplate.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=cguDi-PU8IsqSt9ZxuAekf6srqpLfGK6Vn7KKlaS4rw&e=>
>>>>> *Sustainable Ux in Virtual Reality for Sustainable Ux 2017
>>>>> (narrated): *
>>>>> *https://youtu.be/bU0tz05lcBw
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_bU0tz05lcBw&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=A6efN4akNQhNM7TkafUQ2p0eWVtPSP7uqCNHjYE8KrM&e=>*
>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>> =================
>>>>> *Buy my book! *- Millennials and the Popular Culture
>>>>> *Lifecourse:* http://www.lifecourse.com/store/catalog/lca/mpc.html
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.lifecourse.com_store_catalog_lca_mpc.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=p0tcO1bSH_pIRmNicqE11Uz4PKOCTbGqIzXbR-X9GRY&e=>
>>>>> *Amazon Author Page:*
>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Pete-Markiewicz/e/B0069VZ7BG/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_pop_2
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.amazon.com_Pete-2DMarkiewicz_e_B0069VZ7BG_ref-3Dntt-5Fathr-5Fdp-5Fpel-5Fpop-5F2&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=RvaiOQ2Ib9e2n8Gsd0CxAAdW8x7G_yVPkXecG-eOkmc&e=>
>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>> =================
>>>>> *On that page, see my DARPA Grand Challenge 2005 entry video, "Team
>>>>> Robomonster":*
>>>>> *Team Robomonster *(DARPA 2005 Grand Challenge):
>>>>> http://robotsthatjump.wordpress.com/category/team-robomonster/
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__robotsthatjump.wordpress.com_category_team-2Drobomonster_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=S8fL7YyqlvRUht4RglLbMH2vcNwcc47nmaYJKmDxeGY&e=>
>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>> =================
>>>>> *Indiespace *(1st to sell downloaded music, March 1994):
>>>>> http://www.indiespace.com
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.indiespace.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=TG1xR_YjrzgJDWlPwR448gLGBvTf8J9gV7xUCgstioo&e=>.
>>>>> Also see http://archive.org
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__archive.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=0ia8zh_eZtQM1JEjWgVLZg&r=jahSgznxrAL5kPgsRvs7bhKUEd9M5X0d-NE2WJg7VT0&m=V6s9YXNdmxw2uXJ_5xGLVR9dHh1ot8GJlLxD9w6IZc0&s=nIEqooDQSb6JeBaIGZW-pjiJdTw7nkDXAyHn2I-YJ5I&e=>
>>>>>  under
>>>>> "Kspace.com" 1996 for our original site.
>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>> =================
>>>>>
>>>>