- From: Coralie Mercier <coralie@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 18:26:54 +0200
- To: Léonie Watson <lwatson@tetralogical.com>, "public-idcg@w3.org" <public-idcg@w3.org>
Thanks all for attending today and the excellent body of ideas we can work on.
The minutes of today’s meeting are available (text snapshot at the bottom):
https://www.w3.org/2020/06/18-idcg-minutes.html
Coralie
> On 16 Jun 2020, at 18:02 , Léonie Watson <lwatson@tetralogical.com> wrote:
>
> Everyone,
>
> […]
> Date: 18 June 2020
> Time: 3pm UTC
> Duration: 60 minutes
> IRC: irc.w3.org channel #idcg
>
> Agenda:
>
> 1. Introductions.
>
> We have lots to get through on the call, so keeping it short means we'll
> have more time for the rest of the agenda. Thank you!
>
> 2. Publishing an ID CG statement in support of BLM.
>
> * Is this something we want to do?
> * If yes, what do we want it to say?
> * If yes, who is willing to work on a draft?
>
>
> 3. Actions the ID CG can take.
>
> A lot of ideas have been shared and we won't have time to discuss all of
> them in detail.
>
> If we can use the time on the call to narrow it down to a shorter list
> and find at least one person willing to actively lead on each of those
> actions, I think that will help us make progress.
>
> If you could all take time to read through the different suggestions and
> have an idea of which ones you think we should take forward, and which
> ones you'd be willing to work on, that would be really helpful. The
> collection is here:
> https://github.com/w3c/idcg/wiki/Ideas-for-ID-CG-actions
>
> 4. Schedule another call.
>
> It seems like having a regular call would be a good thing.
>
>
> --
> Director @TetraLogical
Text version of the minutes:
============================
[1]W3C
[1] https://www.w3.org/
Inclusion and Diversity CG
18 June 2020
[2]IRC log.
[2] https://www.w3.org/2020/06/18-idcg-irc
Attendees
Present
annette_greiner, barbara_hochgesang, chaals_nevile,
coralie_mercier, dan_appelquist, florian_rivoal,
Jaeun_Jemma_Ku, jeff_jaffe, judy_brewer,
marisa_demeglio, melanie_richards, rhian_jones,
shawn_henry, tess_o'connor, tzviya_siegman, wendy_reid,
wendy_seltzer
Regrets
-
Chair
Léonie_Watson
Scribe
dka_, koalie
Contents
1. [3]CG statement in support of Black Lives Matter?
2. [4]Short list of actions to take forward
3. [5]Recurring meetings of the IDCG?
Meeting minutes
Léonie: intros...
[we go around the call and do intros]
CG statement in support of Black Lives Matter?
Léonie: agenda was high level.. 2 items - one is to talk about
this CG making a statment in support of BLM
… other was to look at ideas colected so far.
… find onese people inetrested in taking forward
… for those unfamiliar with W3c meeting pracitces, we are using
IRC ...
… The big question - do we want to make a statement as the CG.
There has been support on the list. Something to be aware of -
we are a CG and we don't represent the w3c as a whole. We have
to phrase it very clearly.
… to be on behalf of this CG and not on behalf of w3c.
WendyR: I think several people have brougt up the topic of a
statement. I think it would be lovely but it would not hold the
weight we want to communicate. The "diversity" group would
implicitly be in favour.
… but what does it has to say about w3c that it's this CG and
not the w3c as a whole...
… I understand that as an international consortium... there may
be issues, but as many people have talked about online, silence
is not good.
… people will ask their employers in the future - and will ask
w3c in the future ... [were they in support of this]
… so i think this message should come from the w3c proper.
<dka_> +1
<tzviya> +1 to wendyreid
Jeff: I think wendy raises some good points. But to share
information: w3c as an organisation is consrtained. But we did
think it's important to make some statement. About 2 weeks aog,
coralie helped to put together a tweet.
<jeff> In a time of upheaval, we are proud that our W3C
community values include standing against prejudice, racism and
discrimination.
<jeff> See our Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct:
[6]https://w3.org/Consortium/cepc
[6] https://w3.org/Consortium/cepc
<koalie> [7]https://twitter.com/w3c/status/1268558233586880514
[7] https://twitter.com/w3c/status/1268558233586880514
Jeff: we didn't think the membership empowered us to issue a
statement supporting BLM but we did think we could issue a
statement against racism and discrimination.
Annette: I agree with what wendy is saying - having it from a
community groups weakens it.
… I also want to point out: there are constraints on what we
can say. But I do wonder if we could craft something that would
get larger approval. If we are able to point to real actions
<jeff> +1 to Annette's suggestion
<koalie> <koalie> +1 to "a matter a fact" makes it difficult
for AC to vote against
<tzviya> +1 to annette_g - make it news, not a policy statement
Annette: that we are taking then it would be a matter of fact.
I suggest we craft a statement about wat we are doing.
<wendyreid> +1 to Annette
<melanierichards> +1, I like the idea of coming from
fact/action
Annette: I think the Tweet [jeff mentions] points at what we
have been doing but I think it could be interpereted as "we
think we've done" - but I felt like there may be room for
thouught or improvement.
<dka_> +1
<Zakim> Barb_H, you wanted to ask about statement question
<chaals> [+1 to being publicly clear that we have room for
improvement and should acknowledge that. (And then get on with
*doing*]
Barb: high level question: besides the w3c I'm active in IEEE
and gracehopper and womenwhocode... and I found those
communities have made a much stronger statement than the w3c
did. If other orgs can do it, how were they able?
… happy to share Grace Hopper's statement. Some people on
boards of both... other orgs have been able to give stronger
statements.
Léonie: tell me about those orgs? are they single entity orgs?
i suspect that might be where the differences lie since w3c has
400+ members...?
Barb: grace hopper - is a org - it's world wide. IEEE as well.
If you benchmark yourself by other orgs do you feel your
statement is in line with what other orgs have done.
<chaals> [IMHO IEEE is the closest of those three to W3C (but
that might just reflect my greater familiarity with it)]
Marisa: I do agree with Annette - why not go for larger
approval. I think the w3c should make a statement. A statement
from this CG doesn't look good. If we do make a statement then
we should suggest specific actions.
… regarding the statement w3c already made, what struck me is
that the code of conduct is great for people already at the
table but our table is not diverse and we need to improve this
table.
<wendyreid> +1 Marisa!
Florian: I am in agreement with Annette. The tweet was well
intended but I would rather say what we can do better rather
than talk about what we've done already.
… we haven't done good enough.
… we need to communicate about what we are doing.
… just saying "black lives matter" and not linking it to
attempts to self improvement then it would be hipocritcal -
… if we start doing things then it's natural to communicate
about what we are doing.
<Zakim> jeff, you wanted to comment on "did we say that we are
done"?
<jeff> [8]https://www.w3.org/blog/2020/06/
diversity-and-inclusion-at-w3c-2020-update-future-of-the-w3c-di
versity-fund/ We must start, reflecting on our times, by saying
clearly that we need to do a lot more to improve our diversity,
equity, and inclusion (DEI) including race, gender and
disability. We have a long way to go, and we’d like to start
taking steps to correct it.
[8] https://www.w3.org/blog/2020/06/diversity-and-inclusion-at-w3c-2020-update-future-of-the-w3c-diversity-fund/
Jeff: I wanted to agree - it would be terrific if we can come
up with a proposed statement that we take to the larger org.
Some people were concerned that the tweet indicates we're
resting on our laurels.
… The blog post i wrote says we have a lot more to do. We havea
long way to go and we want to start taking steps.
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about actions and leading
the web to its full potential
Jeff: if anyone saw the tween and concluded we think we're
done, please point them to the blog pist.
Tzviya: we need to come up with a unified statement...
… in the past when we've discussed policy we've discussed net
neutrality...
… i understand that the AC might balk at this but the
discussions of getting involved in politics and polciy
statements... and are we
… going to make statements about injustice around the world are
legit, but should not stop us from saying something...
… i think we should not be silent.
… i think we should work on a list of actions.
<Zakim> chaals, you wanted to talk about moving straight to
action, and some thoughts about a statement
<annette_g> +1 for action
<Zakim> Judy, you wanted to lean towards action; then being
able to promote those commitments as a statement of fact; and
to looking at everything we're doing, and prioritize some
things those discussions could take up a lot of time and
distract us from actually doing things that we could of course
report immediately.
Chaals: yes. I agree with all that Florian said and I suspect
with what Judy is about to say. saying some people's lives
matter may start discussion about other groups whose lives also
matter.
Judy: a lot of voices talking about action. I think from my
perspective we should take this as an opportunity to review -
how are we talking about diversity in general.
<Barb_H> Comments - Example from Grace Hopper - Wlorld's
largest community in women in computing. The Anita Borg/GHC org
held a panel discus on Candid Conversation building Antiracist
society. I attended the session and thought was a positive
opportunity for their community to share. [9]https://
community.anitab.org/event/
anitab-org-presents-a-candid-conversation-building-an-antiracis
t-society/
[9] https://community.anitab.org/event/anitab-org-presents-a-candid-conversation-building-an-antiracist-society/
Judy: how can we address racial injustice? Let's get more
people at the table. I hope we come up with an aciton plan
incuding outreach, recruitment, engagement... intersectional.
..
… jeff the diversity blog was well timed. If it's possible to
do this as a front page news item it would be better.
<dka_> +1
Léonie: what seems to be emerging is that we should craft a
statement in support of BLM and diversity in geenral and for
that statement to include a list of actions we are taking to
change things and to share that with the AC.
… asking for support.
Judy: I think that sounded good.
… usually AC review of w3c statements takes weeks. there is a
timliness issue. perhaps ab members could make a suggestion of
how to expedite things?
<tink> PROPOSED: We will craft a statement in support of BLM
specifically and diversity in general. The statement will
include the actions we are taking in support of our statement.
We will share this with the AC and ask for their consent to
publish it on behalf of the W3C.
<dka_> +1
<tzviya> +1
<wendyreid> +1
<annette_g> +1
<koalie> <koalie> +1
<chaals> [As one AB member I think you'll have a hard time
getting done in less than 4 weeks while keeping to our agreed
processes]
<Barb_H> +1
<hober> +1
<melanierichards> +1
<marisa> +1
<wseltzer> +1
<Judy> +1
<tink> +1
<Rhian> +1
<koalie> [14 +1, no zeros, no -1; there are 18 participants at
the time of the poll]]
<Jemma> +1
<koalie> s/no 01/no -1/
<chaals> [+1 to looking at process issues separately]
[discussion that the process discussion should be taken out fo
the meeting]
<tink> [10]https://github.com/w3c/idcg/wiki/
Ideas-for-ID-CG-actions
[10] https://github.com/w3c/idcg/wiki/Ideas-for-ID-CG-actions
Short list of actions to take forward
Léonie: if we can come out of this with a small number of
concrete actions ...
… some of these will take more effort to achieve.
Dan: I was going to add one thing
… punctuate the issue a bit
… I feel this is an existential problem at W3C
… I've brought people of colour at W3C who were appalled by the
diversity
… it's indicative to have a discussion about black lives matter
and have no black on the call
<tzviya> +1000 to dka_
<wendyreid> +1000
Dan: to that point, one thing I added to the list and feel
strongly about
… is the idea of not just supporting IEs to do work
… but try to actively paying people from marginalized groups
… to do the engineering work that groups requires
… not just WGs
… CGs as well
… I feel that the discussion about IEs misses the point
… we should try to seed the community to be more diverse
… so next time we're trying to discuss this, we're not a bunch
of white people talking about black lives matter
<wendyreid> +1
<hober> +1
<Zakim> Barb_H, you wanted to ask about outreach
Barb: i want to agree with dan on a high level - coming from my
experience, i participate in university programs to improve
diversity - there is a pipeline - how do we get recruits, how
do we make them feel welcome...
… and how do we promote them to leadership.
… how to improve recruitment, how to improve their
experience...
<chaals> [+1 to work out how to get people into W3C, *and* to
set them up for success (paying people is a valid approach to
that)]
Barb: 2nd point: external outreach (e.g. Grace Hopper) largest
women in computing community out there- bringing women into
open source. we could go to grace hopper to advocate
participation in w3c.
… could take that to multiple organisations.
… Also outreach within - holding panel discussion at TPAC on
this where we listen to people - listen to the w3c community.
… do some outreach to w3c community as well. outreach and
pipeline is critical.
Marisa: so going back to where we started the ideas on the wiki
list. I like the idea of a [?] review board.
<marisa> [11]https://www.w3.org/2020/06/
machine-learning-workshop/
[11] https://www.w3.org/2020/06/machine-learning-workshop/
<tzviya> +1
Marisa: looking at an upcoming workshop. A lot of talks about
javascript but no discussion of algorithm bias.
… we should suggets that they reopen their cfp.
<chaals> [+1 to having clear discussions on questions of how
are we doing and how do we do better as part of W3C]
Judy: that is in progress.
<Judy> [JB: the ML workshop call for proposals is still open;
they are aware of AI bias issues; they have made invitations on
that.]
WendyR: 100% agree with Dan - i've added the stuff about
expanding the invited experts to provide more funding for the
incidentals of attendence - webcam, microphone, bandwidth
charges...
<shawn> +1 for supporting Internet access along with equipment
WendyR: the other thing is child and elder care.
… single parents, eldery parents in their homes.
… I also agree that I would like to pay people for their
participation - e.g. freelancers or part time employees. can be
a drain on resources. Part of the idea of sponsorship - I'd
love to see more junior people coming to w3c meetings, f2f,
tpac, etc...
… people [junior] might not know that w3c is there and might
not think they belong there.
… how do we make it safe for people to take those chances. Some
junior employees might be interested but might have not done
it.
<Barb_H> Comment - AI/ML - MIT Lab [12]https://
www.hrwfilmfestivalstream.org/film/coded-bias/ - When MIT Media
Lab researcher Joy Buolamwini discovers that most
facial-recognition software misidentifies women and
darker-skinned faces, as a woman of color working in a field
dominated by white males, she is compelled to investigate
further.
[12] https://www.hrwfilmfestivalstream.org/film/coded-bias/
WendyR: I also participate in canadian women in computing
conferences - 200 women engineers working n software - all
eager to get into careers and don't know about standards.
<dka_> +1
Tzviya: many great suggestions. we're all pretty much in
agreement. volunteering for specific items. i am the co-chair
of the group working on the cepc. Makes things more
comfortable. I will volunteer for the
… item about making things more comfortable. People join a
working group and get scared off.
<dka_>+1 - based on personal experience of sending a new person
into a wg.
Tzviya: it can be overwhelming. i've seen one black person at
tpac .. ever. it's unfomfortable.
… it's an unpleasant experience.
… we have to figure out ways to make things more comfortable
and more welcoming at w3c.
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about recruitment and
treatment of members
<Zakim> Judy, you wanted to reflect on how we evaluate
different potential actions, and to add one about partnering
with some organizations to accelerate our work in some ways
Judy: so one reason I put a diverse list of actions - aything
on the list has shortcomings .. most of these are necessary to
pursue..
… I thnk we're missing something - partnering with
organisations that are working in racial justice in computing.
… I'd be happy to help.
… see if we can agree on which ones to do.
… by the way the ML need for AI bias got picked up by
horizontal review. so sometimes a HR can pick these up. We
could need an equity review board. or a DEI board.
<Zakim> florian, you wanted to respond to dan about IE
Florian: I'm an IE. I have paid other invited experts. I should
be able to contribute to it.
… among the problems we have is the entrance to the community -
we should have a look - even though we have w3c in the US we
have [few Black people as staff.]
WendyR: some of these things have lots of procedural steps -
others can be actioned right away. I
<Zakim> jeff, you wanted to actualize Barbara's suggestions
about Hopper and the next AC meeting
WendyR: am interested in working on some of these issues in the
team. I like the equity review board idea. I can help move work
through procedural issues.
<Judy> [JB: Pushes back to Florian on "we can't control who the
Members send" which is what W3C told itself for year about
women's participation -- and yet, when we started to encourage
Members to think about diversity when encouraging participation
in W3C, it had a major impact.]
<shawn> [ Shawn also volunteers for Helping people feel welcome
]
Jeff: I'm willing to sign up. we need to get out of this
meeting some agreement. 2 of barb's suggestions would be easy
to do - approach Grace Hopper... also put a spot light at this
at the AC meeting - I'm willing to make a committment that we
put inclusion & diversity at w3c on the agenda.
<Barb_H> Comment - GHC - Happy to help I was part of the Open
Source Sub Commitee and know how the sessions and selection
process work
<florian> JB, sorry, I was too quick. We can, and should,
encourage members, to send more diverse participants. I fully
support doing that. I just mean that we have more control than
mere encouragement over our own recruitment.
Tess: volunteering to work making things more welcoming - as
often the only trans person in the room i feel less welcome
sometimes - i want to help witht hat- i think a ERB is a good
idea.
<chaals> [I am interested in working alongside Florian on
getting money for people to enable participation. I'm also
still trying to figure out how to do the "more welcoming thing"
in practice]
Tess: idea from left field: one thing we've heard on this call
- each of us outside this, we hear "it's a member consortium so
the members send who they send' i think we can do a lot here.
<annette_g> comment on GHC - there is a long history of black
racial equity taking a back seat to the women's movement, hence
there is sensitivity in the BLM movement to that. I would not
support adding presence at GHC as a response to this issue,
though I think it is a good idea on its own merits.
<koalie> [We can't get that data, because we're not tracking
it, hober]
Tess: Jeff sends the diversity report- charts & graphs - but
what is missing is charts and graphs of people in working
groups. So it might be challenging to gather the demographic
info to make a report like that but I think it would be worth
explorting.
<koalie> [the data we compile every year is compiled manually]
Tess: maybe more agressively: sending an annual report to
member companies highligting the (non) diversity of the
participants they send.
… maybe naming and shaming would encourage people to do
something.
Dan: Happy to work with Florian
… +1 to equity board
<Barb_H> Happy to Outreach program
<jeff> +1 to a regular meeting
<Judy_> +1 to Annette's clarification wrt the GHC conference
partnering; one has to be aware of the history, and increasing
participation there isn't the same as directly acting on BLM
issues.
Dan: support what tess said, volunteering for help with IEs,
support ERB
<wendyreid> +1
<annette_g> +1 to equity board as well
Léonie: can we make this a meeting every month? more
frequently?
Recurring meetings of the IDCG?
Jeff: more frequently.
<Jemma> +1 for monthly meeting
Judy: i propose at least every other week for first 2 months.
Léonie: let's put it in as a regular weekly meeting.
<wendyreid> +1 weekly
<chaals> [every other week sounds OK…]
<koalie> <koalie> +1 to weekly
<shawn> +1 for frequent meetings until we get things going
Dan: i support at least doing this next week.
<annette_g> +1 weekly
<Rhian> +1
<chaals> [thanks dka for scribing]
Léonie: thanks everyone for coming along. Thanks to wendy for
your email.
<koalie> thanks wendyreid for kick starting us
<koalie> thanks tink
<koalie> and thanks dka_
<koalie> I'll clean up the minutes
<florian> every other week seems good, especially if it can
stay in sync with AB schedule, so that it falls on the same
night (it is a night meeting)
<koalie> bye all!
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
[13]scribe.perl version 121 (Mon Jun 8 14:50:45 2020 UTC).
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--
Coralie Mercier - W3C Marketing & Communications - https://www.w3.org
mailto:coralie@w3.org +337 810 795 22 https://www.w3.org/People/Coralie/
Received on Thursday, 18 June 2020 16:27:00 UTC