- From: Badral S. <badral@bolorsoft.com>
- Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:45:59 +0100
- To: public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
- Message-ID: <56449817.4010805@bolorsoft.com>
Hi all, How do you think, if we use only FVS2 or FVS3 for overriding? Currently, we use varying FVS1 and FVS2 for this purpose. I think, it's not optimal to teach and to perceive especially for new users. @Jirimutu: Could you please translate it into English? Badral On 12.11.2015 04:59, jrmt@almas.co.jp wrote: > > Hi Greg and All > > I have received another interview replay from Professor Bateer of > Social Academy of Inner Mongolia (内蒙古社会科学院). > > I have committed the original reply document for reference. > > Thanks and Best regards, > > Jirimutu > > =============================================================== > > Almas Inc. > > 101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo > > E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile : 090-6174-6115 > > Phone : 03-5688-2081, Fax : 03-5688-2082 > > http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com/ > > http://www.mongolfont.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Inner Mongolia Delehi Information Technology Co. Ltd. > > 010010 13th floor of Uiles Hotel, No 89 XinHua east street XinCheng > District, Hohhot, Inner Mongolia > > Mail: jirimutu@delehi.com <mailto:jirimutu@delehi.com> Mobile:18647152148 > > Phone: +86-471-6661969, Ofiice:+86-471-6661995 > > http://www.delehi.com/ > > =============================================================== > > *From:*jrmt@almas.co.jp [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp] > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 3, 2015 12:22 PM > *To:* 'Greg Eck' <greck@postone.net>; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org > *Subject:* RE: Two Final Threads - Diphthongs / Final glyph checks > > Hi Greg and All, > > I thinks we have got to final agreement on how to handle the Mongolian > Diphthongs. > > Please correct If I am mistaking anything in my summarize. > > Firstly Compared to GB 26226-2010, GB 25914-2010 and MB font, MS font > in the https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/variants > > 1.We have switched U+1836_Y first medial form ( the default form) to > http://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1836i.png, encoded as <U+1836>, > > 2.We have switched the second medial form of U+1836_Y to > http://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1836m.png, encoded as > <U+1836, FVS1>. > > 3.We have Switched the first medial form (the default form) of > U+1838_W ishttp://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1838i.png, > encoded as <U+1838> > > 4.We have Switched the second medial form of U+1838_W is > http://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1838m.png, encoded as > <U+1838, FVS1> > > 5.For the Mongolian Diphthongs, we will support both theory which is > exist or non-exist. > > 6.For the Mongolian Diphthongs, one can encode it as ai, ei, ii, oi, > ui, oei, uei, as well as ayi, eyi, iyi, oyi, oeyi, ueyi in the medial > and ay, ey, iy, oy, oey, uey. > > But the the yi in the medial should encode as <U+1836, FVS1> if use > *yi, could not use any contextual condition to derive from default form. > > 7.Same to the Mongolian Diphthongs used o, u, oe, ue after vowel. They > can be encoded as o, u, oe, ue as well as w, but have to encode as > <U+1838, FVS1>if use *w > > 8.I would like to ask our linguists to give out the exact encoding > sequence for following case if you use ayi, eyi, iyi, oyi, oeyi, ueyi > for Mongolian Diphthongs. > > ᠨᠠᠢ᠌ᠮᠠ - > > ᠰᠢᠢᠳᠪᠦᠷᠢ - > > ᠦᠢᠯᠡᠰ - > > ᠰᠦᠢᠯᠡᠬᠦ - > > ᠠᠤᠭ ᠠ - > > ᠲᠠᠤᠯᠠᠢ - > > ᠤᠤᠯ - > > ….. > > I am wandering there will be some ambiguous encoding sequence for > these word. > > 9.There are one issue need to make consensus between our members. > > After this change do we need to change the following NNBSP suffixes > encoding in DS05 document ? > > Because it is using <U+1836> without FVS1. (We are ok to remain as > before. We can handle NNBSP in a special rule) > > ᠢᠶᠠᠷ<U+202F><U+1822><U+1836><U+1820><U+1837> > > ᠢᠶᠡᠷ<U+202F><U+1822><U+1836><U+1821><U+1837> > > ᠢᠶᠠᠨ<U+202F><U+1822><U+1836><U+1820><U+1828> > > ᠢᠶᠡᠨ<U+202F><U+1822><U+1836><U+1821><U+1828> > > 10.Do we need to support both possibility for following NNBSP suffixes > encoding ? maybe there more than following. > > ᠲᠠᠶ<U+202F><U+1832><U+1820><U+1822> > > ᠲᠡᠶ<U+202F><U+1832><U+1821><U+1822> > > ᠲᠠᠶᠢᠭᠠᠨ<U+202F><U+1832><U+1820><U+1836><U+1822><U+182D><U+1820><U+1828> > > ᠲᠡᠶᠢᠭᠡᠨ<U+202F><U+1832><U+1821><U+1836><U+1822><U+182D><U+1821><U+1828> > > Finally, I was saying that I had walked through the Universities, > Research Institutes and Publishing house and took some interviews > related with the Mongolian Diphthongs in Hohhot last month. I am > receiving some of the interview replay document from each organization > now. > > I have interviewed following organization in Hohhot last month. > > 1.Inner Mongolia Educational Publishing House (内蒙古教育出版社) > > 2.Inner Mongolia Normal University Computer Science Institute (内蒙古 > 师范大学计算机学院) > > 3.Social Academy of Inner Mongolia (内蒙古社会科学院) > > 4.Hohhot Minzu College(呼和浩特民族学院) > > 5.Minzu University of China(中央民族大学) – telephone interview. > > All of them disagree the Diphthongs non-existence theory and welcome > to support both theory. > > Regarding to the encoding sequence, all of them welcome to switch to > regularly used and broadly accepted one to default form like listed > above. > > For all of member’s reference, I would like to commit all of the > interview reply in their original format to this discussion forum for > archive the documentation. > > I had committed the interview reply from Inner Mongolia Normal > University Computer Science Institute (内蒙古师范大学计算机学院) last > week. > > I have attached the interview reply from Inner Mongolia Educational > Publishing House (内蒙古教育出版社) in this mail. > > They say the stamped original document is on the road. > > All of these documentation is written in Chinese or Mongolian, > > I am sorry for I am not able to get enough time to translate or > summarize them in English in shortly. > > If anyone need English translation or summarization, please let me know. > > I will try to find time to respond on your individual request later. > > Thanks and Best Regards, > > Jirimutu > > =============================================================== > > Almas Inc. > > 101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo > > E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile : 090-6174-6115 > > Phone : 03-5688-2081, Fax : 03-5688-2082 > > http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com/ > > http://www.mongolfont.com/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Inner Mongolia Delehi Information Technology Co. Ltd. > > 010010 13th floor of Uiles Hotel, No 89 XinHua east street XinCheng > District, Hohhot, Inner Mongolia > > Mail: jirimutu@delehi.com <mailto:jirimutu@delehi.com> Mobile:18647152148 > > Phone: +86-471-6661969, Ofiice:+86-471-6661995 > > http://www.delehi.com/ > > =============================================================== > > *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net] > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 27, 2015 10:55 AM > *To:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>; 'Badral S.' > <badral@bolorsoft.com <mailto:badral@bolorsoft.com>>; > public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org> > *Subject:* RE: Two Final Threads - Diphthongs / Final glyph checks > > Hi Badral, > > I don’t see this as such a big issue. Fonts should be as neutral as > possible and as Richard Wordingham put it, contain as little grammar > as possible. Of course thorny solutions like the Final Feminine Ga in > Mongolian are made easy with OpenType rulings. > > The solution Baiti has implemented allows one to type in both AYI as > well as AI given the preference of the user. Of course this makes more > work for the utilities developer, but it maintains the emphasis on > neutrality. > > Greg > > >>>>> > > *Sent:*Tuesday, October 27, 2015 9:22 AM > *Subject:* RE: Two Final Threads - Diphthongs / Final glyph checks > > Hi Badral and All, > > Great! welcome to raise this issue and declare the insistance of > linguists in Mongolia. because I know this the linguistic argument is > continued several handrid years. > > You can refer the Dr. Liang’s article what I have committed before. > > I don’t care if you want to encode the diphthongs as AYI, EYI, IYI, > OYI, UYI, OEYI, UEI. In this case, it is an irregular usage in modern > Mongolian and > > Unicode provide you encode the Y as <U+1836_Y, FVS1> in the Diphthongs. > > We will continue to use AI, EI, II, OI, UI, OEI, UEI for Diphthongs. > Because all of our users will definitely disagree for the removing > Diphthongs from Mongolian scripts. > > Here I am also collecting Mongolian and Computer Science expert’s > opinion in Inner Mongolia. > > I will commit all of the reply from Inner Mongolia in this thread till > we can reach the agreement. > > Please find attached file interview reply from 4 Computer Science > Professors, > > Song Yun, Has, Wang Serguleng, Lin Min in Inner Mongolia Normal > University. > > Let me summary all of the interview replies later. > > Jirimutu > > >>>>> > > *Sent:*Tuesday, October 27, 2015 7:06 AM > *Subject:* Re: Two Final Threads - Diphthongs / Final glyph checks > > Hi Greg, > Unfortunately, I have to re-open this issue. You are right that you > were insecure with my agreement. > I asked today from our Mongolian linguistic team with some Mongolian > script experts like Prof. Dr. Sh. Choimaa, Dr. Munkh-Uchral et.al. to > confirm this agreement at Mongolian diphthongs. Due to Mongolian > language law or what I don't know, somehow the discussion was very > intensive, sceptical and concentrated. Nobody has accepted my > agreement with ai, ei, oi, ue, üe, öe. I claimed that this encoding > seems similar to Mongolian Cyrillic (ай, эй, ой, өй, үй, өй) and > simplify our rules significantly. But they argue as follows: > Argument 1: It destabilizes existing Mongolian data. They summarized, > that any changes could be only acceptable/doable for some good reason > like bug fix, correction (at least like our Da, Na, Ga issues) but not > for destruction! > Argument 2: Encoding diphthongs as ai, ei etc. lead damage to > Mongolian script. As you all know Mongolian script keeps the > alternation rule of consonant and vowel. And we treat ya as a > consonant and keep the rule. But if we encode diphthongs as ai, ei > etc., it voids the rule. > Argument 3: We should be more concentrated on how to encode Mongolian > Script correctly in computer rather than damaging it to make the > encoding easier. > Summary: All diphthongs have to be encoded as ayi, eyi, oyi, uyi, öyi, > üyi. > > Badral > >>>>> > -- Badral Sanlig, Software architect www.bolorsoft.com | www.badral.net Bolorsoft LLC, Selbe Khotkhon 40/4 D2, District 11, Ulaanbaatar
Received on Thursday, 12 November 2015 13:46:34 UTC