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Re: Two Final Threads - Diphthongs / Final glyph checks

From: Badral S. <badral@bolorsoft.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:45:59 +0100
To: public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
Message-ID: <56449817.4010805@bolorsoft.com>
Hi all,
How do you think, if we use only FVS2 or FVS3 for overriding? Currently, 
we use varying FVS1 and FVS2 for this purpose. I think, it's not optimal 
to teach and to perceive especially for new users.

@Jirimutu: Could you please translate it into English?

Badral

On 12.11.2015 04:59, jrmt@almas.co.jp wrote:
>
> Hi Greg and All
>
> I have received another interview replay from Professor Bateer of 
> Social Academy of Inner Mongolia (内蒙古社会科学院).
>
> I have committed the original reply document for reference.
>
> Thanks and Best regards,
>
> Jirimutu
>
> ===============================================================
>
> Almas Inc.
>
> 101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo
>
> E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile : 090-6174-6115
>
> Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082
>
> http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com/
>
> http://www.mongolfont.com/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Inner Mongolia Delehi Information Technology Co. Ltd.
>
> 010010 13th floor of Uiles Hotel, No 89 XinHua east street XinCheng 
> District, Hohhot, Inner Mongolia
>
> Mail: jirimutu@delehi.com <mailto:jirimutu@delehi.com> Mobile:18647152148
>
> Phone: +86-471-6661969,      Ofiice:+86-471-6661995
>
> http://www.delehi.com/
>
> ===============================================================
>
> *From:*jrmt@almas.co.jp [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 3, 2015 12:22 PM
> *To:* 'Greg Eck' <greck@postone.net>; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
> *Subject:* RE: Two Final Threads - Diphthongs / Final glyph checks
>
> Hi Greg and All,
>
> I thinks we have got to final agreement on how to handle the Mongolian 
> Diphthongs.
>
> Please correct If I am mistaking anything in my summarize.
>
> Firstly Compared to GB 26226-2010, GB 25914-2010 and MB font, MS font 
> in the https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/variants
>
> 1.We have switched U+1836_Y first medial form ( the default form) to 
> http://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1836i.png, encoded as <U+1836>,
>
> 2.We have switched the second medial form of U+1836_Y to 
> http://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1836m.png, encoded as 
> <U+1836, FVS1>.
>
> 3.We have Switched the first medial form (the default form) of 
> U+1838_W ishttp://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1838i.png, 
>  encoded as <U+1838>
>
> 4.We have Switched the second medial form of U+1838_W is 
> http://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1838m.png, encoded as 
> <U+1838, FVS1>
>
> 5.For the Mongolian Diphthongs, we will support both theory which is 
> exist or non-exist.
>
> 6.For the Mongolian Diphthongs, one can encode it as ai, ei, ii, oi, 
> ui, oei, uei, as well as ayi, eyi, iyi, oyi, oeyi, ueyi in the medial 
> and ay, ey, iy, oy, oey, uey.
>
> But the the yi in the medial should encode as  <U+1836, FVS1> if use 
> *yi, could not use any contextual condition to derive from default form.
>
> 7.Same to the Mongolian Diphthongs used o, u, oe, ue after vowel. They 
> can be encoded as o, u, oe, ue as well as w, but have to encode as 
> <U+1838, FVS1>if use *w
>
> 8.I would like to ask our linguists to give out the exact encoding 
> sequence for following case if you use ayi, eyi, iyi, oyi, oeyi, ueyi 
> for Mongolian Diphthongs.
>
> ᠨᠠᠢ᠌ᠮᠠ -
>
> ᠰᠢᠢᠳᠪᠦᠷᠢ -
>
> ᠦᠢᠯᠡᠰ -
>
> ᠰᠦᠢᠯᠡᠬᠦ -
>
> ᠠᠤᠭ᠎ᠠ -
>
> ᠲᠠᠤᠯᠠᠢ -
>
> ᠤᠤᠯ -
>
> …..
>
> I am wandering there will be some ambiguous encoding sequence for 
> these word.
>
> 9.There are one issue need to make consensus between our members.
>
> After this change do we need to change the following NNBSP suffixes 
> encoding in DS05 document ?
>
> Because it is using <U+1836> without FVS1. (We are ok to remain as 
> before. We can handle NNBSP in a special rule)
>
>  ᠢᠶᠠᠷ<U+202F><U+1822><U+1836><U+1820><U+1837>
>
>  ᠢᠶᠡᠷ<U+202F><U+1822><U+1836><U+1821><U+1837>
>
>  ᠢᠶᠠᠨ<U+202F><U+1822><U+1836><U+1820><U+1828>
>
>  ᠢᠶᠡᠨ<U+202F><U+1822><U+1836><U+1821><U+1828>
>
> 10.Do we need to support both possibility for following NNBSP suffixes 
> encoding ? maybe there more than following.
>
> ᠲᠠᠶ<U+202F><U+1832><U+1820><U+1822>
>
> ᠲᠡᠶ<U+202F><U+1832><U+1821><U+1822>
>
> ᠲᠠᠶᠢᠭᠠᠨ<U+202F><U+1832><U+1820><U+1836><U+1822><U+182D><U+1820><U+1828>
>
> ᠲᠡᠶᠢᠭᠡᠨ<U+202F><U+1832><U+1821><U+1836><U+1822><U+182D><U+1821><U+1828>
>
> Finally, I was saying that I had walked through the Universities, 
> Research Institutes and  Publishing house and took some interviews 
> related with the Mongolian Diphthongs in Hohhot last month. I am 
> receiving some of the interview replay document from each organization 
> now.
>
> I have interviewed following organization in Hohhot last month.
>
> 1.Inner Mongolia Educational Publishing House (内蒙古教育出版社)
>
> 2.Inner Mongolia Normal University Computer Science Institute (内蒙古 
> 师范大学计算机学院)
>
> 3.Social Academy of Inner Mongolia (内蒙古社会科学院)
>
> 4.Hohhot Minzu College(呼和浩特民族学院)
>
> 5.Minzu University of China(中央民族大学) – telephone interview.
>
> All of them disagree the Diphthongs non-existence theory and welcome 
> to support both theory.
>
> Regarding to the encoding sequence, all of them welcome to switch to 
> regularly used and broadly accepted one to default form like listed 
> above.
>
> For all of member’s reference, I would like to commit all of the 
> interview reply in their original format to this discussion forum for 
> archive the documentation.
>
> I had committed the interview reply from Inner Mongolia Normal 
> University Computer Science Institute (内蒙古师范大学计算机学院) last 
> week.
>
> I have attached the interview reply from  Inner Mongolia Educational 
> Publishing House (内蒙古教育出版社) in this mail.
>
> They say the stamped original document is on the road.
>
> All of these documentation is written in Chinese or Mongolian,
>
> I am sorry for I am not able to get enough time to translate or 
> summarize them in English in shortly.
>
> If anyone need English translation or summarization, please let me know.
>
> I will try to find time to respond on your individual request later.
>
> Thanks and Best Regards,
>
> Jirimutu
>
> ===============================================================
>
> Almas Inc.
>
> 101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo
>
> E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile : 090-6174-6115
>
> Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082
>
> http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com/
>
> http://www.mongolfont.com/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Inner Mongolia Delehi Information Technology Co. Ltd.
>
> 010010 13th floor of Uiles Hotel, No 89 XinHua east street XinCheng 
> District, Hohhot, Inner Mongolia
>
> Mail: jirimutu@delehi.com <mailto:jirimutu@delehi.com> Mobile:18647152148
>
> Phone: +86-471-6661969,      Ofiice:+86-471-6661995
>
> http://www.delehi.com/
>
> ===============================================================
>
> *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 27, 2015 10:55 AM
> *To:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>; 'Badral S.' 
> <badral@bolorsoft.com <mailto:badral@bolorsoft.com>>; 
> public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
> *Subject:* RE: Two Final Threads - Diphthongs / Final glyph checks
>
> Hi Badral,
>
> I don’t see this as such a big issue. Fonts should be as neutral as 
> possible and as Richard Wordingham put it, contain as little grammar 
> as possible. Of course thorny solutions like the Final Feminine Ga in 
> Mongolian are made easy with OpenType rulings.
>
> The solution Baiti has implemented allows one to type in both AYI as 
> well as AI given the preference of the user. Of course this makes more 
> work for the utilities developer, but it maintains the emphasis on 
> neutrality.
>
> Greg
>
> >>>>>
>
> *Sent:*Tuesday, October 27, 2015 9:22 AM
> *Subject:* RE: Two Final Threads - Diphthongs / Final glyph checks
>
> Hi Badral and All,
>
> Great! welcome to raise this issue and declare the insistance of 
> linguists in Mongolia. because I know this the linguistic argument is 
> continued several handrid years.
>
> You can refer the Dr. Liang’s article what I have committed before.
>
> I don’t care if you want to encode the diphthongs as AYI, EYI, IYI, 
> OYI, UYI, OEYI, UEI. In this case, it is an irregular usage in modern 
> Mongolian and
>
> Unicode provide you encode the Y as <U+1836_Y, FVS1> in the Diphthongs.
>
> We will continue to use AI, EI, II, OI, UI, OEI, UEI for Diphthongs. 
> Because all of our users will definitely disagree for the removing 
> Diphthongs from Mongolian scripts.
>
> Here I am also collecting Mongolian and Computer Science expert’s 
> opinion in Inner Mongolia.
>
> I will commit all of the reply from Inner Mongolia in this thread till 
> we can reach the agreement.
>
> Please find attached file interview reply from 4 Computer Science 
> Professors,
>
> Song Yun, Has, Wang Serguleng, Lin Min in Inner Mongolia Normal 
> University.
>
> Let me summary all of the interview replies later.
>
> Jirimutu
>
> >>>>>
>
> *Sent:*Tuesday, October 27, 2015 7:06 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Two Final Threads - Diphthongs / Final glyph checks
>
> Hi Greg,
> Unfortunately, I have to re-open this issue. You are right that you 
> were insecure with my agreement.
> I asked today from our Mongolian linguistic team with some Mongolian 
> script experts like Prof. Dr. Sh. Choimaa, Dr. Munkh-Uchral et.al. to 
> confirm this agreement at Mongolian diphthongs. Due to Mongolian 
> language law or what I don't know, somehow the discussion was very 
> intensive, sceptical and concentrated. Nobody has accepted my 
> agreement with ai, ei, oi, ue, üe, öe. I claimed that this encoding 
> seems similar to Mongolian Cyrillic (ай, эй, ой, өй, үй, өй) and 
> simplify our rules significantly. But they argue as follows:
> Argument 1: It destabilizes existing Mongolian data. They summarized, 
> that any changes could be only acceptable/doable for some good reason 
> like bug fix, correction (at least like our Da, Na, Ga issues) but not 
> for destruction!
> Argument 2: Encoding diphthongs as ai, ei etc. lead damage to 
> Mongolian script. As you all know Mongolian script keeps the 
> alternation rule of consonant and vowel. And we treat ya as a 
> consonant and keep the rule. But if we encode diphthongs as ai, ei 
> etc., it voids the rule.
> Argument 3: We should be more concentrated on how to encode Mongolian 
> Script correctly in computer rather than damaging it to make the 
> encoding easier.
> Summary: All diphthongs have to be encoded as ayi, eyi, oyi, uyi, öyi, 
> üyi.
>
> Badral
> >>>>>
>


-- 
Badral Sanlig, Software architect
www.bolorsoft.com | www.badral.net
Bolorsoft LLC, Selbe Khotkhon 40/4 D2, District 11, Ulaanbaatar
Received on Thursday, 12 November 2015 13:46:34 UTC

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