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RE: Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants

From: <jrmt@almas.co.jp>
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 19:14:35 +0900
To: "'Badral S.'" <badral@bolorsoft.com>, <public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
Message-ID: <000001d10fd7$1d8229f0$58867dd0$@almas.co.jp>
Hi Badral,

> should we type more FVS characters or less FVS characters in every day? For who do we produce a font? 
> For developers us or for users? If you produce a font for users please change your viewpoint.

Let me clarify that when we type the character in the Mongolian word, it will be conditionally auto select the display form.
But when we write the Medial form of the character NA, GA, DA separately, 
we use the FVS1 for the Form before Vowel only if  without vowel exist actually.
Statistically the occurrence of the Form before Vowel in separately showing case is less than the Form before consonant.

It is same with the isolate form of the O/U/OE/UE. You ignored the user friendly proposal and selected the developer friendly proposal actually.
We can agree on it because the isolate case is seldom used in the document and we can handle existing material on our site.
But the switching of DA,NA,GA default medial variants will not be accepted not only Almas Group, but also most of the Inner Mongolia Users.
Because it will impact large amount of existing material.

You can also ask MenkSoft Group, Inner Mongolia University Group, and Other Group in this forum. 
I can list out Almas Font users group, HuaGuang Font Users Group, Inner Mongolia University Computer Science Institutes Font User Group.
Switching is not difficult, but we have to consider the benefit and the cost. 

Thanks and Regards for your understanding,

Jirimutu
===============================================================
Almas Inc. 
101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo
E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp   Mobile : 090-6174-6115
Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082
http://www.almas.co.jp/   http://www.compiere-japan.com/
http://www.mongolfont.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------
Inner Mongolia Delehi Information Technology Co. Ltd.
010010 13th floor of Uiles Hotel, No 89 XinHua east street XinCheng District, Hohhot, Inner Mongolia
Mail:  jirimutu@delehi.com       Mobile:18647152148
Phone:  +86-471-6661969,      Ofiice: +86-471-6661995
http://www.delehi.com/
===============================================================
-----Original Message-----
From: jrmt@almas.co.jp [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp] 
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 6:40 PM
To: 'Badral S.' <badral@bolorsoft.com>; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
Subject: RE: Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants

Hi Badral,

> We discuss here not preference between FVS1 or FVS2 but default vs. 
> FVS1. There is a great difference between them.
> Please understand, should we type more FVS characters or less FVS characters in every day? For who do we produce a font? 
> For developers us or for users? If you produce a font for users please change your viewpoint.

You are misunderstanding my sentence in double quotation.
That sentence is written in 5th of August. That sentence only want to say we should define the basic rule in some acceptable sequence.

Let me come back to discussion point. 
I would like advice remain the default form as the Medial Form of these characters before consonant, like listed in https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/variants
Encode the Medial Form of these characters before Vowel with FVS1,
  <U+1828_NA, FVS1> is the dotted Medial NA.
  <U+182D_GA, FVS1> is the masculine dotted Medial GA.
  <U+1833_DA, FVS1> is the medial DA before vowel.

It will be simplify the font development as well as the user friendly selections actually (at least in Inner Mongolia).
It is also used for long time and accepted by the most of the users in Inner Mongolia.

Maybe my reference of the previous mail sentence leads misunderstanding.
Please read 1), 2), 3) section of my previous mail to check the reason of my insistence.

Thanks and Best Regards,

Jirimutu
===============================================================
Almas Inc. 
101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo
E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp   Mobile : 090-6174-6115
Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082
http://www.almas.co.jp/   http://www.compiere-japan.com/
http://www.mongolfont.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------
Inner Mongolia Delehi Information Technology Co. Ltd.
010010 13th floor of Uiles Hotel, No 89 XinHua east street XinCheng District, Hohhot, Inner Mongolia
Mail:  jirimutu@delehi.com       Mobile:18647152148
Phone:  +86-471-6661969,      Ofiice: +86-471-6661995
http://www.delehi.com/
===============================================================
-----Original Message-----
From: Badral S. [mailto:badral@bolorsoft.com]
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 6:08 PM
To: jrmt@almas.co.jp; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
Subject: Re: Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants

Hi Jirimutu,

On 26.10.2015 08:23, jrmt@almas.co.jp wrote:
> Hi Badral and All,
>
> I have different opinion with Badral on the Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants.
>
> I think it is better to select the Medial Form Before Consonant is prior than the Medial Form Before Vowel.
>
> It is because,
> 1) When we can select default form (Medial Form Before Consonant) first and switch the form under the condition if it is before vowel.
> There are only 8 vowels in Mongolian and it is less than the count of the consonant, and easier to write the condition.
I don't understand it. Do you write conditions glyph by glyph without group definition? Then you should define group sets like vowels, consonants, ligatures etc. Then the writing conditions more easier and less than you write now. The performance is also much better.
> 2) When we use ZWJ and NIRUGU before and after these character, it is better to show the non-vowel medial form. Because there are no vowel actually.
>     It is the most regular usage case in Two Word Names (People's Name or Place Name).
Think again how many Two Word Names occur in a sentence! I see it actually counter-argument.
> 3) There are a lot of existing documents already in there (In Inner Mongolia, there are a lot kind of documents already created by 5-6 kinds of existing Fonts.
>     It is not just only MenkSoft, Almas Font already covers 40% of the usage, and there are Mongolian Baiti, FangZheng, HuaGuang, Inner Mongolia University Computer Science Institutes
>     are providing Mongolian Font in Inner Mongolia.
There are a lot of data in Mongolia using Mongolianscript. In coming years will be produced much more Mongolian data in Mongolia.
> 4) I have raised my opinion in
>      https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-mongolian/2015JulSep/att-0174/FVS_Discussion_List.pdf
>     I have wrote the basic rule as "we can select the one written 
> before consonant form first(use FVS1), and select the form written before vowel comes next(FVS2)." in the document.  I wrote here FVS1 and FVS2 is the selecting the priority sequence example.
> What I mean is the form written before consonant is prior than written before vowel.
We discuss here not preference between FVS1 or FVS2 but default vs. 
FVS1. There is a great difference between them.
Please understand, should we type more FVS characters or less FVS characters in every day? For who do we produce a font? For developers us or for users? If you produce a font for users please change your viewpoint.

Badral
> Thanks to your understanding.
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Jirimutu
> ===============================================================
> Almas Inc.
> 101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo
> E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp   Mobile : 090-6174-6115
> Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082
> http://www.almas.co.jp/   http://www.compiere-japan.com/
> http://www.mongolfont.com/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Inner Mongolia Delehi Information Technology Co. Ltd.
> 010010 13th floor of Uiles Hotel, No 89 XinHua east street XinCheng District, Hohhot, Inner Mongolia
> Mail:  jirimutu@delehi.com       Mobile:18647152148
> Phone:  +86-471-6661969,      Ofiice: +86-471-6661995
> http://www.delehi.com/
> ===============================================================
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Badral S. [mailto:badral@bolorsoft.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 1:48 AM
> To: public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants
>
> Hi Andrew & Greg,
> I think the impact is slight because:
> 1. Most existing Mongolian data has still own encoding (non-unicode). In Mongolia, mostly used the fonts CM Urga, Ulaanbaatar etc. For instance:
> http://www.president.mn/mng, http://khumuunbichig.montsame.mn ...
> In inner Mongolia used mostly Menkhsoft's solution. Please comment Menksoft's representatives.
> 2. Most mongolian unicode data created using Mongolian script font, which has 15 years long correct default variants. In inner Mongolia used probably Mongolian Baiti. Mongolian Baiti was/is itself very unstable.
> For instance, as I know, it has in 2011 "Bichig" as "Bichig+fvs1"
> encoded. or? It means the existing mongolian unicode data is itself really not stable. If we change it to correct variant, we would implement normalisation tool for unicode mongolian data and distribute it freely.
> 3. I tend to think, the current default forms are not standardized globally. If not, can you redirect me and give me some references?
>
> Badral
>
> On 25.10.2015 13:48, Andrew West wrote:
>> On 25 October 2015 at 03:11, Badral S. <badral@bolorsoft.com> wrote:
>>> 1. Why we should not switch current U+1828 medial and U+1828 medial + FSV1?
>>> 2. Why we should not switch current U+1833 medial and U+1833 medial + FSV1?
>>> 3. Why we should not switch current U+182D medial and U+182D medial + FSV1?
>> Because it would destabilize existing Mongolian data.  In my opinion, 
>> we should not switch existing FVS's, even when the alternative would 
>> have made more sense for the reasons you mention.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>
> --
> Badral Sanlig, Software architect
> www.bolorsoft.com | www.badral.net
> Bolorsoft LLC, Selbe Khotkhon 40/4 D2, District 11, Ulaanbaatar
>
>
>


--
Badral Sanlig, Software architect
www.bolorsoft.com | www.badral.net
Bolorsoft LLC, Selbe Khotkhon 40/4 D2, District 11, Ulaanbaatar
Received on Monday, 26 October 2015 10:15:25 UTC

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