Re: FW: NNBSP Impact

Hi Greg,

Yes, it is correct, the dag/deg verb suffix is never joined in 
Traditional(or classic) Mongolian as like other suffixes.
The suffixes almost joined in Cyrillic Mongolian and never joined in 
Traditional(or classic) Mongolian.

SiqinBilige.

On 2015/07/15 11:08, Greg Eck wrote:
>
> Hi Siqin,
>
> Would it be correct to say that the dag/deg verb suffix is never 
> joined in Inner Mongolia?
>
> As I understand, it is always joined in Ulaanbaatar.
>
> Greg
>
> PS Badral, could you comment on this also? Just in case you had missed 
> it, Siqin had included a pdf of examples earlier using the dag/deg suffix.
>
> *From:*siqin [mailto:siqin@almas.co.jp]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 15, 2015 9:43 AM
> *To:* Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: FW: NNBSP Impact
>
> Hi, Greg,
>
> The joined one is part of the prev word(verb), not Suffix.
> The seperate one is Suffix.
>
> SiqinBilige.
>
> On 2015/07/15 10:13, Greg Eck wrote:
>
>     Thank you, Siqin, for the data on dag/deg.
>
>     The first example is very helpful in showing the formation of the
>     double dag/deg. The first is joined. The second is separated.
>
>     In this case, then, I would think that it definitely goes in the
>     DS05 – however it should be noted that sometimes it is joined and
>     sometimes separated by the NNBSP.
>
>     I am updating DS05 now.
>
>     Greg
>
>     *From:*siqin [mailto:siqin@almas.co.jp]
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, July 14, 2015 9:44 AM
>     *To:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>; Greg Eck;
>     public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: NNBSP Impact
>
>     Hi, Greg Eck , Jirimutu,
>
>     There is some usage of dag,deg.
>
>     SiqinBIlige.
>
>     On 2015/07/12 17:36, jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> wrote:
>
>         Hi Greg,
>
>         I have updated my discussion paper included you JUL 10’s
>         comment and added my discussion and declaration as well.
>
>         (a little bit difference for the discussion on ACA | ECA)
>
>         Please ignore NNBSP_Model_discussion_0712_updated.pdf what I
>         have sent out.
>
>         The attached file NNBSP_Model_discussion_0712_updated_01.pdf
>         is correct one.
>
>         Thanks and Best Regards,
>
>         /Jirimutu/
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         /Almas Inc./
>
>         /101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo/
>
>         /E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>         090-6174-6115/
>
>         /Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082/
>
>         /http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com//
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
>         *Sent:* Saturday, July 11, 2015 1:39 AM
>         *To:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>;
>         public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP Impact
>
>         Mr. Jirimutu,
>
>         I have responded to your NNBSP/MSS paper as attached.
>
>         Thanks for your input.
>         Greg
>
>         *From:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>
>         [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp]
>         *Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2015 1:25 AM
>         *To:* Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>         <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP Impact
>
>         Hi Greg,
>
>         Let me send out my updated document of NNBSP_Model_discussion.pdf.
>
>         I have included Your response and added my comments as well as
>         additional discussion points.
>
>         I am travelling in Inner Mongolia now and maybe my response
>         will be delayed in coming two weeks.
>
>         I will find time to try to reply mail quickly.
>
>         Thanks and Best Regards,
>
>         /Jirimutu/
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         /Almas Inc./
>
>         /101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo/
>
>         /E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>         090-6174-6115/
>
>         /Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082/
>
>         /http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com//
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
>         *Sent:* Wednesday, July 8, 2015 10:30 PM
>         *To:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>;
>         public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>         *Subject:* NNBSP Impact
>
>         I have included an initial response to Mr. Jirumutu’s paper
>         entitled _NNBSP_Model_discussion.pdf_.
>
>         Comments are welcome.
>
>         Also attached:
>
>         DS00 – Standard Mongolian NNBSP Model (as updated)
>
>         DS05 - detailing all known suffixes with NNBSP impact (updated
>         as requested by Mr. Jirimutu)
>
>         Greg
>
>         *From:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>
>         [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp]
>         *Sent:* Tuesday, July 7, 2015 8:25 PM
>         *To:* Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>         <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>         Hi Greg Eck,
>
>         Thank you very much for your clarification.
>
>         I understand your explanation for NNBSP status.
>
>         I think there is three direction to select.
>
>         1.Add some supplementary definition to NNBSP to fit the
>         Mongolian Encoding requirement. (maybe it is impossible
>         because of the other languages)
>
>         2.Replace NNBSP usage in Mongolian with other Mongolian Block
>         character, as I mentioned for example U+180F
>
>         3.Bear the restriction of the NNBSP usage and consider to use
>         NNBSP in Mongolian encoding.
>
>         (We need to persuade each application one by one to fit
>         Mongolian requirements just like Dr. Quejingzhabu had done
>         with Microsoft)
>
>         Anyone have good idea or solution to resolve the issue ?
>
>         Anyway we need to continue to discuss the model to solve the
>         Mongolian Suffix Model either use NNBSP or other character.
>
>         Let me send out my NNBSP Model Discussion paper to all
>         members. In the discussion paper, I have included the NNBSP
>         replacement proposals as well.
>
>         If you do not agree it, just please ignore it and skip into
>         following discussion contents.
>
>         I am also updated the MVS Model discussion paper and included
>         Greg’s response as well as my comments in it.
>
>         Please let me know if anyone have any question about it.
>
>         Thanks and Best Regards,
>
>         /Jirimutu/
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         /Almas Inc./
>
>         /101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo/
>
>         /E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>         090-6174-6115/
>
>         /Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082/
>
>         /http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com//
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
>         *Sent:* Tuesday, July 7, 2015 5:57 PM
>         *To:* public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>         <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>         Mr. Jirimutu,
>
>         I am not the one to answer about redefining the NNBSP since it
>         is defined by the Unicode Consortium.  However, in reading the
>         past posts from Badral and others, it appears that
>         redefinition would be problematic at this point as it is tied
>         to other languages such as French and Russian – stabilization
>         would be the issue. *Can someone else answer this question as
>         stated below?*
>
>         I can represent Dr. Quejingzhabu in his request that
>         upper-level layout features in MS Word dealing with the NNBSP
>         have been broken for some time. I think we had a discussion on
>         this at least two years back. His bug report dealt with
>         word-count across NNBSP-bounded suffixes, along with
>         CTL-RIGHT/CTL-LEFT word skipping across the same NNBSP-bounded
>         suffixes.
>
>         Greg
>
>         *Are there other problems that other some of you have found in
>         dealing with the current implementation of the NNBSP? Let’s
>         see if we can put together a list of problems found in the
>         current NNBSP implementation …*
>
>         *Spell-checking – Badral*
>
>         *Xxx – Mr. Jirimutu*
>
>         *Word-count – Prof. Quejingzhabu*
>
>         *Word-skip (CTL-RIGHT/LEFT) – Prof. Quejingzhabu*
>
>         *…*
>
>         **
>
>         *From:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>
>         [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp]
>         *Sent:* Monday, July 6, 2015 9:17 AM
>         *To:* Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>         <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>         Hi Greg Eck,
>
>         Thank you very much. I appreciate your attention.
>
>         I will prepare my discussion paper for NNBSP include our AAT
>         implementation logic.
>
>         We are discussing in our team how to propose for NNBSP. I will
>         send our discussion paper in one or two days.
>
>         As Mr. Badral’s mail, the NNBSP is the big problem in the
>         Mongolian Encodings now.
>
>         Before explain our solution of NNBSP on AAT,
>
>         I would like to ask if is it possible to redefine the Suffix
>         Joiner ?
>
>         If it is possible to redefine the Suffix Joiner, I would like
>         to propose U+180F to be the Mongolian Suffix Joiner.
>
>         That will be pretty on the code structure and simple on the
>         handle.
>
>         If it is impossible to redefine, we have to use NNBSP, I would
>         like to participate into the discussion.
>
>         Thanks and Best Regards,
>
>         /Jirimutu/
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         /Almas Inc./
>
>         /101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo/
>
>         /E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>         090-6174-6115/
>
>         /Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082/
>
>         /http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com//
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
>         *Sent:* Monday, July 6, 2015 1:17 AM
>         *To:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>;
>         public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>         Mr. Jirimutu,
>
>         Thank you for the explanation on AAT’s handling of the
>         character preceding the MVS.
>
>         Please do let us know how the character preceding the NNBSP is
>         handled also – that will be very helpful.
>
>         Greg
>
>         *From:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>
>         [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp]
>         *Sent:* Monday, July 6, 2015 12:04 AM
>         *To:* Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>         <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>         Hi Greg Eck,
>
>         I would like to send my some discussion about the MVS today.
>
>         I will follow up the NNBSP soon if I have any comment.
>
>         *>It would be nice to find out whether Apple rendering systems
>         follow suit. *
>
>         *>If anyone knows of an Apple engineer that we could ask, *
>
>         *>I will follow up on the matter. Or if there are other
>         rendering systems >that we should consider, please bring them up.*
>
>         **
>
>         We created the Apple AAT Font on our site and Apple handle
>         this as an static machine stream.
>
>         In the case all of the rules we defined working well on Mac OS
>         X and iOS system.
>
>         The MVS model processing on our AAT font is that
>
>         the string <MONG_INITIAL><MONG_MEDIAL>< MONG_LETTER
>         ><MVS><U+1820 | U+1821> where MONG is the range U+1820 - U+18AA,
>
>         Our font will tag the MONG_LETTER as <fina>  only if the
>         <MONG_LETTER> is one of <U+1828-n>, <U+182C-n>, <U+182D-g>,
>
>         <U+182E-m>, <U+182F-l>, <U+1830-s>, <U+1831-sh>, <U+1835-j>,
>         <U+1836-y>, <U+1837-r>, <U+1838-w> as well as
>
>         <U+1823-o>, <U+1824-u>, <U+1825-oe>, <U+1826-ue>. Which Is the
>         Mongolian MVS requested characters.
>
>         Note: Apple system site had one bug on the Mac OS X
>         10.8-10.10.2 and iOS 8.0-8.2
>
>         rdar://problem/18483089> REGRESSION: iOS8 did not able to
>         correctly rendering Mongolian vowel separator(180E)
>
>         this bug had been fixed on Mac OS X 10.10.3 and iOS 8.3 now.
>
>         Thanks and Best Regards,
>
>         /Jirimutu/
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         /Almas Inc./
>
>         /101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo/
>
>         /E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>         090-6174-6115/
>
>         /Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082/
>
>         /http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com//
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
>         *Sent:* Saturday, July 4, 2015 11:34 PM
>         *To:* public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>         <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Cc:* Behdad Esfahbod
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>         Behdad Esfahbod, as the Harfbuzz designer,  was kind enough to
>         answer my  questions of how Harfbuzz handles the MVS/NNBSP
>         context. He confirmed my understanding that Harfbuzz follows
>         the Microsoft Universal Shaping Engine in the following …
>         *Thank you Behdad* …
>
>         >>>>>
>
>         Given the string <MONG_INITIAL><MONG_MEDIAL>< MONG_LETTER
>         ><NNBSP><MONG_SUFFIX> where MONG is the range U+1820 - U+18AA,
>         Harfbuzz applies the <fina> tag applied to MONG_LETTER
>
>         The same processing holds for <MONG_INITIAL><MONG_MEDIAL><
>         MONG_LETTER ><MVS><U+1820 | U+1821>
>
>         >>>>>
>
>         *It would be nice to find out whether Apple rendering systems
>         follow suit. If anyone knows of an Apple engineer that we
>         could ask, I will follow up on the matter. Or if there are
>         other rendering systems that we should consider, please bring
>         them up.*
>
>         The DS00 charts have been updated. I am also attaching two
>         files that have been helpful to me in considering the range of
>         usage of the MVS / NNBSP. DS04 deals with MVS usage. DS05
>         deals with NNBSP usage. *Comments/corrections/questions are
>         welcome.*
>
>         Let’s go on to consider six cases where the MVS/NNBSP affect
>         the shaping behavior of the character immediately
>         preceeding/following the MVS/NNBSP – U+1820, U+1828, U+182C,
>         U+182D, U+1835, and U+1836.
>
>         Greg Eck
>