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Re: FW: NNBSP Impact

From: Badral S. <badral@bolorsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 08:50:41 +0200
Message-ID: <55AC9A41.1090003@bolorsoft.com>
To: public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
Hi,
I was unable to be online. Currently, I have limited access to internet.
Siqin has right. In cyrillic almost all suffixes are joined. Some 
pluralization and possessive suffixes are not joined.

Badral

On 15.07.2015 04:08, Greg Eck wrote:
>
> Hi Siqin,
>
> Would it be correct to say that the dag/deg verb suffix is never 
> joined in Inner Mongolia?
>
> As I understand, it is always joined in Ulaanbaatar.
>
> Greg
>
> PS Badral, could you comment on this also? Just in case you had missed 
> it, Siqin had included a pdf of examples earlier using the dag/deg suffix.
>
> *From:*siqin [mailto:siqin@almas.co.jp]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 15, 2015 9:43 AM
> *To:* Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: FW: NNBSP Impact
>
> Hi, Greg,
>
> The joined one is part of the prev word(verb), not Suffix.
> The seperate one is Suffix.
>
> SiqinBilige.
>
> On 2015/07/15 10:13, Greg Eck wrote:
>
>     Thank you, Siqin, for the data on dag/deg.
>
>     The first example is very helpful in showing the formation of the
>     double dag/deg. The first is joined. The second is separated.
>
>     In this case, then, I would think that it definitely goes in the
>     DS05 – however it should be noted that sometimes it is joined and
>     sometimes separated by the NNBSP.
>
>     I am updating DS05 now.
>
>     Greg
>
>     *From:*siqin [mailto:siqin@almas.co.jp]
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, July 14, 2015 9:44 AM
>     *To:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>; Greg Eck;
>     public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: NNBSP Impact
>
>     Hi, Greg Eck , Jirimutu,
>
>     There is some usage of dag,deg.
>
>     SiqinBIlige.
>
>     On 2015/07/12 17:36, jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> wrote:
>
>         Hi Greg,
>
>         I have updated my discussion paper included you JUL 10’s
>         comment and added my discussion and declaration as well.
>
>         (a little bit difference for the discussion on ACA | ECA)
>
>         Please ignore NNBSP_Model_discussion_0712_updated.pdf what I
>         have sent out.
>
>         The attached file NNBSP_Model_discussion_0712_updated_01.pdf
>         is correct one.
>
>         Thanks and Best Regards,
>
>         /Jirimutu/
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         /Almas Inc./
>
>         /101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo/
>
>         /E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>         090-6174-6115/
>
>         /Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082/
>
>         /http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com//
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
>         *Sent:* Saturday, July 11, 2015 1:39 AM
>         *To:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>;
>         public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP Impact
>
>         Mr. Jirimutu,
>
>         I have responded to your NNBSP/MSS paper as attached.
>
>         Thanks for your input.
>         Greg
>
>         *From:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>
>         [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp]
>         *Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2015 1:25 AM
>         *To:* Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>         <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP Impact
>
>         Hi Greg,
>
>         Let me send out my updated document of NNBSP_Model_discussion.pdf.
>
>         I have included Your response and added my comments as well as
>         additional discussion points.
>
>         I am travelling in Inner Mongolia now and maybe my response
>         will be delayed in coming two weeks.
>
>         I will find time to try to reply mail quickly.
>
>         Thanks and Best Regards,
>
>         /Jirimutu/
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         /Almas Inc./
>
>         /101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo/
>
>         /E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>         090-6174-6115/
>
>         /Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082/
>
>         /http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com//
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
>         *Sent:* Wednesday, July 8, 2015 10:30 PM
>         *To:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>;
>         public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>         *Subject:* NNBSP Impact
>
>         I have included an initial response to Mr. Jirumutu’s paper
>         entitled _NNBSP_Model_discussion.pdf_.
>
>         Comments are welcome.
>
>         Also attached:
>
>         DS00 – Standard Mongolian NNBSP Model (as updated)
>
>         DS05 - detailing all known suffixes with NNBSP impact (updated
>         as requested by Mr. Jirimutu)
>
>         Greg
>
>         *From:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>
>         [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp]
>         *Sent:* Tuesday, July 7, 2015 8:25 PM
>         *To:* Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>         <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>         Hi Greg Eck,
>
>         Thank you very much for your clarification.
>
>         I understand your explanation for NNBSP status.
>
>         I think there is three direction to select.
>
>         1.Add some supplementary definition to NNBSP to fit the
>         Mongolian Encoding requirement. (maybe it is impossible
>         because of the other languages)
>
>         2.Replace NNBSP usage in Mongolian with other Mongolian Block
>         character, as I mentioned for example U+180F
>
>         3.Bear the restriction of the NNBSP usage and consider to use
>         NNBSP in Mongolian encoding.
>
>         (We need to persuade each application one by one to fit
>         Mongolian requirements just like Dr. Quejingzhabu had done
>         with Microsoft)
>
>         Anyone have good idea or solution to resolve the issue ?
>
>         Anyway we need to continue to discuss the model to solve the
>         Mongolian Suffix Model either use NNBSP or other character.
>
>         Let me send out my NNBSP Model Discussion paper to all
>         members. In the discussion paper, I have included the NNBSP
>         replacement proposals as well.
>
>         If you do not agree it, just please ignore it and skip into
>         following discussion contents.
>
>         I am also updated the MVS Model discussion paper and included
>         Greg’s response as well as my comments in it.
>
>         Please let me know if anyone have any question about it.
>
>         Thanks and Best Regards,
>
>         /Jirimutu/
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         /Almas Inc./
>
>         /101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo/
>
>         /E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>         090-6174-6115/
>
>         /Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082/
>
>         /http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com//
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
>         *Sent:* Tuesday, July 7, 2015 5:57 PM
>         *To:* public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>         <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>         Mr. Jirimutu,
>
>         I am not the one to answer about redefining the NNBSP since it
>         is defined by the Unicode Consortium.  However, in reading the
>         past posts from Badral and others, it appears that
>         redefinition would be problematic at this point as it is tied
>         to other languages such as French and Russian – stabilization
>         would be the issue. *Can someone else answer this question as
>         stated below?*
>
>         I can represent Dr. Quejingzhabu in his request that
>         upper-level layout features in MS Word dealing with the NNBSP
>         have been broken for some time. I think we had a discussion on
>         this at least two years back. His bug report dealt with
>         word-count across NNBSP-bounded suffixes, along with
>         CTL-RIGHT/CTL-LEFT word skipping across the same NNBSP-bounded
>         suffixes.
>
>         Greg
>
>         *Are there other problems that other some of you have found in
>         dealing with the current implementation of the NNBSP? Let’s
>         see if we can put together a list of problems found in the
>         current NNBSP implementation …*
>
>         *Spell-checking – Badral*
>
>         *Xxx – Mr. Jirimutu*
>
>         *Word-count – Prof. Quejingzhabu*
>
>         *Word-skip (CTL-RIGHT/LEFT) – Prof. Quejingzhabu*
>
>         *…*
>
>         **
>
>         *From:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>
>         [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp]
>         *Sent:* Monday, July 6, 2015 9:17 AM
>         *To:* Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>         <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>         Hi Greg Eck,
>
>         Thank you very much. I appreciate your attention.
>
>         I will prepare my discussion paper for NNBSP include our AAT
>         implementation logic.
>
>         We are discussing in our team how to propose for NNBSP. I will
>         send our discussion paper in one or two days.
>
>         As Mr. Badral’s mail, the NNBSP is the big problem in the
>         Mongolian Encodings now.
>
>         Before explain our solution of NNBSP on AAT,
>
>         I would like to ask if is it possible to redefine the Suffix
>         Joiner ?
>
>         If it is possible to redefine the Suffix Joiner, I would like
>         to propose U+180F to be the Mongolian Suffix Joiner.
>
>         That will be pretty on the code structure and simple on the
>         handle.
>
>         If it is impossible to redefine, we have to use NNBSP, I would
>         like to participate into the discussion.
>
>         Thanks and Best Regards,
>
>         /Jirimutu/
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         /Almas Inc./
>
>         /101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo/
>
>         /E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>         090-6174-6115/
>
>         /Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082/
>
>         /http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com//
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
>         *Sent:* Monday, July 6, 2015 1:17 AM
>         *To:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>;
>         public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>         Mr. Jirimutu,
>
>         Thank you for the explanation on AAT’s handling of the
>         character preceding the MVS.
>
>         Please do let us know how the character preceding the NNBSP is
>         handled also – that will be very helpful.
>
>         Greg
>
>         *From:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>
>         [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp]
>         *Sent:* Monday, July 6, 2015 12:04 AM
>         *To:* Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>         <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>         Hi Greg Eck,
>
>         I would like to send my some discussion about the MVS today.
>
>         I will follow up the NNBSP soon if I have any comment.
>
>         *>It would be nice to find out whether Apple rendering systems
>         follow suit. *
>
>         *>If anyone knows of an Apple engineer that we could ask, *
>
>         *>I will follow up on the matter. Or if there are other
>         rendering systems >that we should consider, please bring them up.*
>
>         **
>
>         We created the Apple AAT Font on our site and Apple handle
>         this as an static machine stream.
>
>         In the case all of the rules we defined working well on Mac OS
>         X and iOS system.
>
>         The MVS model processing on our AAT font is that
>
>         the string <MONG_INITIAL><MONG_MEDIAL>< MONG_LETTER
>         ><MVS><U+1820 | U+1821> where MONG is the range U+1820 - U+18AA,
>
>         Our font will tag the MONG_LETTER as <fina>  only if the
>         <MONG_LETTER> is one of <U+1828-n>, <U+182C-n>, <U+182D-g>,
>
>         <U+182E-m>, <U+182F-l>, <U+1830-s>, <U+1831-sh>, <U+1835-j>,
>         <U+1836-y>, <U+1837-r>, <U+1838-w> as well as
>
>         <U+1823-o>, <U+1824-u>, <U+1825-oe>, <U+1826-ue>. Which Is the
>         Mongolian MVS requested characters.
>
>         Note: Apple system site had one bug on the Mac OS X
>         10.8-10.10.2 and iOS 8.0-8.2
>
>         rdar://problem/18483089> REGRESSION: iOS8 did not able to
>         correctly rendering Mongolian vowel separator(180E)
>
>         this bug had been fixed on Mac OS X 10.10.3 and iOS 8.3 now.
>
>         Thanks and Best Regards,
>
>         /Jirimutu/
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         /Almas Inc./
>
>         /101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo/
>
>         /E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>         090-6174-6115/
>
>         /Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082/
>
>         /http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com//
>
>         /==========================================================/
>
>         *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
>         *Sent:* Saturday, July 4, 2015 11:34 PM
>         *To:* public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>         <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>         *Cc:* Behdad Esfahbod
>         *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>         Behdad Esfahbod, as the Harfbuzz designer,  was kind enough to
>         answer my  questions of how Harfbuzz handles the MVS/NNBSP
>         context. He confirmed my understanding that Harfbuzz follows
>         the Microsoft Universal Shaping Engine in the following …
>         *Thank you Behdad* …
>
>         >>>>>
>
>         Given the string <MONG_INITIAL><MONG_MEDIAL>< MONG_LETTER
>         ><NNBSP><MONG_SUFFIX> where MONG is the range U+1820 - U+18AA,
>         Harfbuzz applies the <fina> tag applied to MONG_LETTER
>
>         The same processing holds for <MONG_INITIAL><MONG_MEDIAL><
>         MONG_LETTER ><MVS><U+1820 | U+1821>
>
>         >>>>>
>
>         *It would be nice to find out whether Apple rendering systems
>         follow suit. If anyone knows of an Apple engineer that we
>         could ask, I will follow up on the matter. Or if there are
>         other rendering systems that we should consider, please bring
>         them up.*
>
>         The DS00 charts have been updated. I am also attaching two
>         files that have been helpful to me in considering the range of
>         usage of the MVS / NNBSP. DS04 deals with MVS usage. DS05
>         deals with NNBSP usage. *Comments/corrections/questions are
>         welcome.*
>
>         Let’s go on to consider six cases where the MVS/NNBSP affect
>         the shaping behavior of the character immediately
>         preceeding/following the MVS/NNBSP – U+1820, U+1828, U+182C,
>         U+182D, U+1835, and U+1836.
>
>         Greg Eck
>


-- 
Badral Sanlig, Software architect
www.bolorsoft.com | www.badral.net
Bolorsoft LLC, Selbe Khotkhon 40/4 D2, District 11, Ulaanbaatar
Received on Monday, 20 July 2015 06:51:13 UTC

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