Re: FW: NNBSP Impact

Hi, Greg,

The joined one is part of the prev word(verb), not Suffix.
The seperate one is Suffix.

SiqinBilige.

On 2015/07/15 10:13, Greg Eck wrote:
>
> Thank you, Siqin, for the data on dag/deg.
>
> The first example is very helpful in showing the formation of the 
> double dag/deg. The first is joined. The second is separated.
>
> In this case, then, I would think that it definitely goes in the DS05 
> – however it should be noted that sometimes it is joined and sometimes 
> separated by the NNBSP.
>
> I am updating DS05 now.**
>
> Greg
>
> *From:*siqin [mailto:siqin@almas.co.jp]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 14, 2015 9:44 AM
> *To:* jrmt@almas.co.jp; Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: NNBSP Impact
>
> Hi, Greg Eck , Jirimutu,
>
> There is some usage of dag,deg.
>
> SiqinBIlige.
>
> On 2015/07/12 17:36, jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> wrote:
>
>     Hi Greg,
>
>     I have updated my discussion paper included you JUL 10’s comment
>     and added my discussion and declaration as well.
>
>     (a little bit difference for the discussion on ACA | ECA)
>
>     Please ignore NNBSP_Model_discussion_0712_updated.pdf what I have
>     sent out.
>
>     The attached file NNBSP_Model_discussion_0712_updated_01.pdf is
>     correct one.
>
>     Thanks and Best Regards,
>
>     /Jirimutu/
>
>     /==========================================================/
>
>     /Almas Inc./
>
>     /101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo/
>
>     /E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>     090-6174-6115/
>
>     /Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082/
>
>     /http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com//
>
>     /==========================================================/
>
>     *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
>     *Sent:* Saturday, July 11, 2015 1:39 AM
>     *To:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>;
>     public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>     *Subject:* RE: NNBSP Impact
>
>     Mr. Jirimutu,
>
>     I have responded to your NNBSP/MSS paper as attached.
>
>     Thanks for your input.
>     Greg
>
>     *From:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>
>     [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp]
>     *Sent:* Friday, July 10, 2015 1:25 AM
>     *To:* Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>     <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>     *Subject:* RE: NNBSP Impact
>
>     Hi Greg,
>
>     Let me send out my updated document of NNBSP_Model_discussion.pdf.
>
>     I have included Your response and added my comments as well as
>     additional discussion points.
>
>     I am travelling in Inner Mongolia now and maybe my response will
>     be delayed in coming two weeks.
>
>     I will find time to try to reply mail quickly.
>
>     Thanks and Best Regards,
>
>     /Jirimutu/
>
>     /==========================================================/
>
>     /Almas Inc./
>
>     /101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo/
>
>     /E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>     090-6174-6115/
>
>     /Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082/
>
>     /http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com//
>
>     /==========================================================/
>
>     *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
>     *Sent:* Wednesday, July 8, 2015 10:30 PM
>     *To:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>;
>     public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>     *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>     *Subject:* NNBSP Impact
>
>     I have included an initial response to Mr. Jirumutu’s paper
>     entitled _NNBSP_Model_discussion.pdf_.
>
>     Comments are welcome.
>
>     Also attached:
>
>     DS00 – Standard Mongolian NNBSP Model (as updated)
>
>     DS05 - detailing all known suffixes with NNBSP impact (updated as
>     requested by Mr. Jirimutu)
>
>     Greg
>
>     *From:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>
>     [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp]
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, July 7, 2015 8:25 PM
>     *To:* Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>     <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>     *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>     *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>     Hi Greg Eck,
>
>     Thank you very much for your clarification.
>
>     I understand your explanation for NNBSP status.
>
>     I think there is three direction to select.
>
>     1.Add some supplementary definition to NNBSP to fit the Mongolian
>     Encoding requirement. (maybe it is impossible because of the other
>     languages)
>
>     2.Replace NNBSP usage in Mongolian with other Mongolian Block
>     character, as I mentioned for example U+180F
>
>     3.Bear the restriction of the NNBSP usage and consider to use
>     NNBSP in Mongolian encoding.
>
>     (We need to persuade each application one by one to fit Mongolian
>     requirements just like Dr. Quejingzhabu had done with Microsoft)
>
>     Anyone have good idea or solution to resolve the issue ?
>
>     Anyway we need to continue to discuss the model to solve the
>     Mongolian Suffix Model either use NNBSP or other character.
>
>     Let me send out my NNBSP Model Discussion paper to all members. In
>     the discussion paper, I have included the NNBSP replacement
>     proposals as well.
>
>     If you do not agree it, just please ignore it and skip into
>     following discussion contents.
>
>     I am also updated the MVS Model discussion paper and included
>     Greg’s response as well as my comments in it.
>
>     Please let me know if anyone have any question about it.
>
>     Thanks and Best Regards,
>
>     /Jirimutu/
>
>     /==========================================================/
>
>     /Almas Inc./
>
>     /101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo/
>
>     /E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>     090-6174-6115/
>
>     /Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082/
>
>     /http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com//
>
>     /==========================================================/
>
>     *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, July 7, 2015 5:57 PM
>     *To:* public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>     <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>     *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>     *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>     Mr. Jirimutu,
>
>     I am not the one to answer about redefining the NNBSP since it is
>     defined by the Unicode Consortium.  However, in reading the past
>     posts from Badral and others, it appears that redefinition would
>     be problematic at this point as it is tied to other languages such
>     as French and Russian – stabilization would be the issue. *Can
>     someone else answer this question as stated below?*
>
>     I can represent Dr. Quejingzhabu in his request that upper-level
>     layout features in MS Word dealing with the NNBSP have been broken
>     for some time. I think we had a discussion on this at least two
>     years back. His bug report dealt with word-count across
>     NNBSP-bounded suffixes, along with CTL-RIGHT/CTL-LEFT word
>     skipping across the same NNBSP-bounded suffixes.
>
>     Greg
>
>     *Are there other problems that other some of you have found in
>     dealing with the current implementation of the NNBSP? Let’s see if
>     we can put together a list of problems found in the current NNBSP
>     implementation …*
>
>     *Spell-checking – Badral*
>
>     *Xxx – Mr. Jirimutu*
>
>     *Word-count – Prof. Quejingzhabu*
>
>     *Word-skip (CTL-RIGHT/LEFT) – Prof. Quejingzhabu*
>
>     *…*
>
>     **
>
>     *From:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>
>     [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp]
>     *Sent:* Monday, July 6, 2015 9:17 AM
>     *To:* Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>     <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>     *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>     *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>     Hi Greg Eck,
>
>     Thank you very much. I appreciate your attention.
>
>     I will prepare my discussion paper for NNBSP include our AAT
>     implementation logic.
>
>     We are discussing in our team how to propose for NNBSP. I will
>     send our discussion paper in one or two days.
>
>     As Mr. Badral’s mail, the NNBSP is the big problem in the
>     Mongolian Encodings now.
>
>     Before explain our solution of NNBSP on AAT,
>
>     I would like to ask if is it possible to redefine the Suffix Joiner ?
>
>     If it is possible to redefine the Suffix Joiner, I would like to
>     propose U+180F to be the Mongolian Suffix Joiner.
>
>     That will be pretty on the code structure and simple on the handle.
>
>     If it is impossible to redefine, we have to use NNBSP, I would
>     like to participate into the discussion.
>
>     Thanks and Best Regards,
>
>     /Jirimutu/
>
>     /==========================================================/
>
>     /Almas Inc./
>
>     /101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo/
>
>     /E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>     090-6174-6115/
>
>     /Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082/
>
>     /http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com//
>
>     /==========================================================/
>
>     *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
>     *Sent:* Monday, July 6, 2015 1:17 AM
>     *To:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>;
>     public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>     *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>     *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>     Mr. Jirimutu,
>
>     Thank you for the explanation on AAT’s handling of the character
>     preceding the MVS.
>
>     Please do let us know how the character preceding the NNBSP is
>     handled also – that will be very helpful.
>
>     Greg
>
>     *From:* jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>
>     [mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp]
>     *Sent:* Monday, July 6, 2015 12:04 AM
>     *To:* Greg Eck; public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>     <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>     *Cc:* 'Behdad Esfahbod'
>     *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>     Hi Greg Eck,
>
>     I would like to send my some discussion about the MVS today.
>
>     I will follow up the NNBSP soon if I have any comment.
>
>     *>It would be nice to find out whether Apple rendering systems
>     follow suit. *
>
>     *>If anyone knows of an Apple engineer that we could ask, *
>
>     *>I will follow up on the matter. Or if there are other rendering
>     systems >that we should consider, please bring them up.*
>
>     **
>
>     We created the Apple AAT Font on our site and Apple handle this as
>     an static machine stream.
>
>     In the case all of the rules we defined working well on Mac OS X
>     and iOS system.
>
>     The MVS model processing on our AAT font is that
>
>     the string <MONG_INITIAL><MONG_MEDIAL>< MONG_LETTER ><MVS><U+1820
>     | U+1821> where MONG is the range U+1820 - U+18AA,
>
>     Our font will tag the MONG_LETTER as <fina>  only if the
>     <MONG_LETTER> is one of <U+1828-n>, <U+182C-n>, <U+182D-g>,
>
>     <U+182E-m>, <U+182F-l>, <U+1830-s>, <U+1831-sh>, <U+1835-j>,
>     <U+1836-y>, <U+1837-r>, <U+1838-w> as well as
>
>     <U+1823-o>, <U+1824-u>, <U+1825-oe>, <U+1826-ue>. Which Is the
>     Mongolian MVS requested characters.
>
>     Note: Apple system site had one bug on the Mac OS X 10.8-10.10.2
>     and iOS 8.0-8.2
>
>     rdar://problem/18483089> REGRESSION: iOS8 did not able to
>     correctly rendering Mongolian vowel separator(180E)
>
>     this bug had been fixed on Mac OS X 10.10.3 and iOS 8.3 now.
>
>     Thanks and Best Regards,
>
>     /Jirimutu/
>
>     /==========================================================/
>
>     /Almas Inc./
>
>     /101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo/
>
>     /E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>     090-6174-6115/
>
>     /Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082/
>
>     /http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com//
>
>     /==========================================================/
>
>     *From:*Greg Eck [mailto:greck@postone.net]
>     *Sent:* Saturday, July 4, 2015 11:34 PM
>     *To:* public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>     <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>     *Cc:* Behdad Esfahbod
>     *Subject:* RE: NNBSP-MVS Impact
>
>     Behdad Esfahbod, as the Harfbuzz designer,  was kind enough to
>     answer my  questions of how Harfbuzz handles the MVS/NNBSP
>     context. He confirmed my understanding that Harfbuzz follows the
>     Microsoft Universal Shaping Engine in the following … *Thank you
>     Behdad* …
>
>     >>>>>
>
>     Given the string <MONG_INITIAL><MONG_MEDIAL>< MONG_LETTER
>     ><NNBSP><MONG_SUFFIX> where MONG is the range U+1820 - U+18AA,
>     Harfbuzz applies the <fina> tag applied to MONG_LETTER
>
>     The same processing holds for <MONG_INITIAL><MONG_MEDIAL><
>     MONG_LETTER ><MVS><U+1820 | U+1821>
>
>     >>>>>
>
>     *It would be nice to find out whether Apple rendering systems
>     follow suit. If anyone knows of an Apple engineer that we could
>     ask, I will follow up on the matter. Or if there are other
>     rendering systems that we should consider, please bring them up.*
>
>     The DS00 charts have been updated. I am also attaching two files
>     that have been helpful to me in considering the range of usage of
>     the MVS / NNBSP. DS04 deals with MVS usage. DS05 deals with NNBSP
>     usage. *Comments/corrections/questions are welcome.*
>
>     Let’s go on to consider six cases where the MVS/NNBSP affect the
>     shaping behavior of the character immediately preceeding/following
>     the MVS/NNBSP – U+1820, U+1828, U+182C, U+182D, U+1835, and U+1836.
>
>     Greg Eck
>