- From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
- Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:13:29 +0900
- To: public-i18n-its@w3.org
- Message-ID: <4445D509.6040703@w3.org>
... are at
http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html
and below as text.
- Felix
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
i18n ITS working group (Oxford f2f)
18 Apr 2006
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-its/2006AprJun/0024.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-irc
Attendees
Present
Christian, Felix, Sebastian, Yves
Regrets
Chair
Yves
Scribe
Felix
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]agenda check
2. [6]versioning
3. [7]processing expectations for directionality or ruby
4. [8]bug http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2915
"relationship between host vocabulary markup data"
5. [9]metadata for rules, see
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3068
6. [10]Indicator of constraints
7. [11]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3039
check constraints of global rules
8. [12]proposal for grouping rules
9. [13]conformance section (again)
10. [14]integrate conformance discussion in the draft
11. [15]topics for tomorrow
* [16]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
agenda check
sebastian: one additional topic: what does an implementation mean?
yves: that is handled in the conformance section, basically it is
"use selection" for the data category
... we handle that during the "implementation" topic
versioning
yves: three proposals:
... 1)version attribute at the root
... 2) same as 1), but if the attribute is absent, it is "1.0"
... 3) version attribute at the root, or if there is a <rules>
element, version attribute at <rules>
Sebastian: two issues: default for versioning, and position of
versioning
... how about XInclude? Where do you process the version?
... do you process this before or after inclusion?
felix: we process what is in XML 1.0, which includes entities, but
not DITA or XInclude etc.
sebastian: we should articulate that in the draft
<scribe> ACTION: editors to write a paragraph about relation of
inclusion of external information (XInclude, DITA inclusion)versus
ITS processing [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]
sebastian: versioning again: implimentation of version attributes if
they don't have a fixed root
yves: for example DITA has no fixed root
... summary of discussion: version attribute should be at the root
element
example: <x its:version="1.0"><its:rules...</x>
<x> is a root element
<its:rules version="1.0"
<its:rules> is root element
felix: define the version as a global version attribute
sebastian: you would need to modify the whole schema to do that
yves: no consensus yet, we handle the topic at the end of the
meeting or later again
processing expectations for directionality or ruby
yves: felix proposed to point to the W3C ruby TR, and for
directionality XHTML 2.0
christian: what will happen if an editor encountors ruby markup?
yves: it depends if the editor wants to complie with the markup part
or the processing part
... if the latter is the case, it has to be compliant with external
specs
felix: I don't propose s.t. new, but to see if you are fine with the
current spec
yves: we don't have a processor for the global rules of ruby and ITS
... we might have to drop at some point the selection mechanism and
replace it with real mapping
<scribe> ACTION: editors to make conformance of ruby and
directionality clearer (esp. with regard to processing of global
rules) [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action02]
<scribe> ACTION: editors to repair [19]http://www.w3.org/1999/xlinkf
to give the right namespace [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action03]
[19] http://www.w3.org/1999/xlinkf
<scribe> ACTION: editors to add markup to "alt" [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action04]
bug [22]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2915
"relationship between host vocabulary markup data"
[22] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2915
christian: description on how to associate the host markup with ITS
yves: question if there is more information in ITS or in the host
vocabulary with respect to a data category
... if it is the same amount of information, it is fine to associate
both, if it is different, it is maby not possible
... this is a general problem of ITS. The specific one for term:
what is a term?
... there is no agreement on what a term is
<scribe> ACTION: editors to repair numbering of conformance clauses
in sec.
[23]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#conformance-product-processing-expecta
tions [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action05]
[23]
http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#conformance-product-processing-expectations
yves: we need examples for terms in sec
[25]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#terms
[25] http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#terms
<scribe> ACTION: all to write examples of what a term is, and what
it is used for [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action06]
yves: dt element in XHTML is an index marker.
sebastian: TEI has a term element.
... we need a better example for example 22
<scribe> ACTION: all to make a better example for example 22
[recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action07]
<rahtz> TEI: <desc>contains a single-word, multi-word, or symbolic
designation
<rahtz> which is regarded as a technical term.</desc>
<rahtz> TEI example: A computational device that infers structure
from grammatical
<rahtz> strings of words is known as a <term>parser</term>, and much
<rahtz> of the history of NLP over the last 20 years has been
occupied
<rahtz> with the design of parsers
christian: what if the host vocabulary has a different data type?
<rahtz> its:termRef="[28]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parser"
[28] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parser
christian: e.g. anyURI versus NMTOKEN
felix: that would not work
... is that only a problem for anyURI, that is all pointer
attributes, ref attributes?
christian: how about the pointer attributes? Do they select all
content, e.g. including child elements or not?
sebastian:
its:termRef="[29]http://example.com/termdatabase/#x142539"/> : what
more information would you need here?
[29] http://example.com/termdatabase/#x142539
christian: people want to know that this reference is e.g. a
password secured java data base
sebastian: the storage mechanism is hard to grap here
yves: it might be different with termRefPointer, e.g. you want to be
sure that it is an URI
<scribe> ACTION: all to provide an example for termRefPointer for
the draft [recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action08]
<rahtz> "To point a link to a term reference in the current
document, a termRefPointer can be used"
<rahtz> "To point to a link to term reference in the current
documentation, a termRefPointer can be used"
<scribe> ACTION: editors to implement Sebastians change for
termRefPointer definition [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action09]
<rahtz> "To point to a link to a term reference in the current
document, a termRefPointer can be used"
sebastian: example: dt with href attribute
<rahtz> example: We may define <term xml:id="TDPV"
rend="sc">discoursal point of view</term>
<rahtz> as <gloss target="#TDPV">the relationship, expressed through
discourse
<rahtz> structure, between the implied author or some other
addresser,
<rahtz> and the fiction.</gloss>
<rahtz> We may define <term target="#TDPV">discoursal point of
view</term>
<rahtz> as <gloss xml:id="TDPV">the relationship, expressed through
discourse
<rahtz> structure, between the implied author or some other
addresser,
<rahtz> and the fiction.</gloss>
summary of associating discussion: If you have semantics /
processing expectations in the host vocabulary
scribe: which are an addition to what ITS specifies, the assocation
can be done
christian: I am fine with what is informally described at
[32]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#d3e180
[32] http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#d3e180
yves: "Associating existing markup with ITS data categories can be
only done if the processing expecations are the same
... or if the processing expecations of the host markup cover at
least the same as ITS"
<scribe> ACTION: editor change "Mapping of ITS Data Categories to
Existing Markup" to "Associating ITS Data Categories with Existing
Markup" [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action10]
<scribe> ACTION: editors to add Yves sentence about associating ITS
with existing markup to sec
[34]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#purpose-mapping recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action11]
[34] http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#purpose-mapping
<rahtz> <its:termRule selector="//tei:term"
termRefPointer="@target"/>
felix: as for anyURI in the "ref" attributes, we can just say the
types should be compatible
... as for XPath expressions in pointer attributes, we can say "the
interpretation is the same as the non pointer functionality"
sebastian: we need to make clear that all pointer attributes are
relative XPath expressions
<scribe> ACTION: editors to make clear that all pointer attributes
are relative XPath expressions [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action12]
metadata for rules, see
[37]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3068
[37] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3068
sebastian: is rules an "island" in the host vocabulary, or is it
interleaved. Goes back to the question on <rules>
... e.g. the question "who writes the rules?", or "how are they
interleaving?"
... you are inventing a new markup language
christian: I would like to see versioning information interleaved
with the meta data
... I see a need for having meta data
felix: what would you choose? SAP manual, TEI header, dublin core
etc.?
christian: we could use whatever you like, or we define at least a
standardized set of meta data
sebastian: should rules be part of meta data, or the other way
around?
felix: it would take a lot time to do this
sebastian: we could describe as a technique "use dublin core for
meta data"
christian: putting a remark in the techniques document would be fine
yves: what vocabulary would that be? ITS or s.t. else?
christian: we could stay away from ITS, just say "use what you like"
sebastian: if the rules are embedded within a bigger document, are
they embedded within the ITS rules?
christian: in the ITS rules
sebastian: we have identification with xml:id, no need to invent
that again
... is it o.k. to have <rules> as an island in another document? if
that is possible, you could have all kinds of metadata in that
... we could say "it is good practice to have a time stamp on your
file"
... and refer people to the techniques document
yves: does it need to be in the ITS tagset draft or in the
techniques document?
sebastian: processing of the xlink attribute is like
descendant-or-self in XPath
<scribe> ACTION: editors to change example 13 to add meta data to it
[recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action13]
Indicator of constraints
yves: I would say "version 1.1"
[39]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3039 check
constraints of global rules
[39] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3039
sebastian: we could embedd these examples in the schema
yves: is it possible to process this separatly?
sebastian: yes
christian: will we provide a web service for checking these
constraints?
felix: W3C has no resources for that :(
<scribe> ACTION: Felix to write the constraints for pointer versus
not pointer, to be implemented as schematron schema annotations,
useable also separately [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action14]
yves: current consensus: wait for comments on the spec
proposal for grouping rules
yves: this has been postponed to see if the get feedback from the
public.
conformance section (again)
"These conformance types are defined complementary. " -> "These
conformance types complement each other. "
"subsections in Section 6: Description of Data Categories": this
must also talk about sec. 5
"All local ITS attributes should be declared at all elements which
are part of the schema."
yves: why this?
sebastian: if you have valid XML documents, you don't need this
felix: this conformance level is for schema authors, without the
instance document
<chriLi> Could we look at
[41]http://www.imsproject.org/metadata/mdbestv1p1.html#Conformance
[41] http://www.imsproject.org/metadata/mdbestv1p1.html#Conformance
yves: proposal: you have to implement one of the declarations:
rules, at least one local attribute, ruby, span
... still have clause 1-1,3,4
... but not 1-2
... one additional clause / paragraph: an implementation which
implements everything has "complete" markup declarations
<chriLi> How about: A schema can fullfil one of two conformance
levels: full or partial.
<chriLi> Full conformance is defined as follows ... Partial
conformance ...
<chriLi> And have a note which explains the rationale and advantage.
<chriLi> Ex. Advantage of partial conformance: Do not pollute ...
<scribe> ACTION: do rewording of conformance sec. 4.1 together
[recorded in
[42]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action15]
sebastian: section 4.2: "generated or validated relying on"->"valid
against"
yves: "element within text" should not include child elements
<scribe> ACTION: editors to change default selection for "element
within text" [recorded in
[43]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action16]
<scribe> ACTION: editors to add a link to data category for
conformance clause 2.3 [recorded in
[44]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action17]
christian: how about not slicing global versus local selection?
yves: people might want to use only one of them
"it must process all of the XLink href attributes found in the rules
elements." -> "it must process an XLink href attribute found on a
rules element"
"Processing expecations are the information which are necessary to
attach ITS information to one or more nodes in an XML document"
(proposal by Christian / Sebastian)
<chriLi> ITS markup allows information to be attached to XML nodes.
Processors need to compute the information which is attached to an
XML nodes (or set of nodes) correctlly.
<chriLi> Addition: Correct computation especially involves support
for selection mechanism, defaults, and precedence.
summary: MUST for processing at least one data category, and then
2-1 - 2-3 as a nested list
christian: add a sentence to "description":
... "An implementation of a data category MUST (SHOULD?)make
explicit what selection (global or local) it supports"
<chriLi> selections _and_ data categories?
yves: for each datacategory: say you support it or not, and say
which selection you support
sebastian: how would a conformance claim look like?
... each conformance claim MUST have a matrix about datacat
(yes/no), selection global (yes , no), selection local (yes, no)
<scribe> ACTION: editors to add xml:id attributes to all div
elements (to avoid automatically generated id attributes) [recorded
in [45]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action18]
integrate conformance discussion in the draft
<scribe> ACTION: felix to clean up old change markup from the draft
[recorded in
[46]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action19]
<scribe> ACTION: discuss change of "may" to "should" at The markup
may be valid against a schema which is conform to the conformance
clauses in Section 4.1: Conformance Type 1: ITS Markup Declarations.
[recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action20]
<scribe> ACTION: discuss moving the examples of ITS applications
(editors etc.) in the conformance "normative" sub section [recorded
in [48]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action21]
topics for tomorrow
See if changes have been integrated properly.
address [49]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2877
[49] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=2877
[50]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3010
[50] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3010
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: editors to add markup to "alt" [recorded in
[51]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: all to make a better example for example 22 [recorded
in [52]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: all to provide an example for termRefPointer for the
draft [recorded in
[53]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: discuss change of "may" to "should" at The markup may
be valid against a schema which is conform to the conformance
clauses in Section 4.1: Conformance Type 1: ITS Markup Declarations.
[recorded in
[54]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action20]
[NEW] ACTION: discuss moving the examples of ITS applications
(editors etc.) in the conformance "normative" sub section [recorded
in [55]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action21]
[NEW] ACTION: do rewording of conformance sec. 4.1 together
[recorded in
[56]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action15]
[NEW] ACTION: editor change "Mapping of ITS Data Categories to
Existing Markup" to "Associating ITS Data Categories with Existing
Markup" [recorded in
[57]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: editors to add a link to data category for conformance
clause 2.3 [recorded in
[58]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action17]
[NEW] ACTION: editors to add xml:id attributes to all div elements
(to avoid automatically generated id attributes) [recorded in
[59]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action18]
[NEW] ACTION: editors to add Yves sentence about associating ITS
with existing markup to sec
[60]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#purpose-mapping recorded in
[61]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: editors to change default selection for "element
within text" [recorded in
[62]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action16]
[NEW] ACTION: editors to change example 13 to add meta data to it
[recorded in
[63]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: editors to implement Sebastians change for
termRefPointer definition [recorded in
[64]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: editors to make clear that all pointer attributes are
relative XPath expressions [recorded in
[65]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: editors to make conformance of ruby and directionality
clearer (esp. with regard to processing of global rules) [recorded
in [66]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: editors to repair [67]http://www.w3.org/1999/xlinkf to
give the right namespace [recorded in
[68]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: editors to repair numbering of conformance clauses in
sec.
[69]http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#conformance-product-processing-expecta
tions [recorded in
[70]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: editors to write a paragraph about relation of
inclusion of external information (XInclude, DITA inclusion)versus
ITS processing [recorded in
[71]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: felix to clean up old change markup from the draft
[recorded in
[72]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action19]
[NEW] ACTION: Felix to write the constraints for pointer versus not
pointer, to be implemented as schematron schema annotations, useable
also separately [recorded in
[73]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action14]
[NEW] ACTION: all to write examples of what a term is, and what it
is used for [recorded in
[74]http://www.w3.org/2006/04/18-i18nits-minutes.html#action06]
[60] http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#purpose-mapping
[67] http://www.w3.org/1999/xlinkf
[69]
http://www.w3.org/TR/its/#conformance-product-processing-expectations
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
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Received on Wednesday, 19 April 2006 06:13:52 UTC