!!the meeting is now!! Re: W3C I18N & Accessibility; ISO 639 language codes

please email janina with any connection problems 
All the best

Lisa Seeman

http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/, https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa





---- On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 14:37:38 +0300  <mailto:janina@rednote.net> wrote ----


Colleagues: 
 
Those of you joining our meeting tomorrow on sign language and AAC 
designations by telephone should follow the remote participation teleconference 
directions at: 
 
htt://http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2019 
 
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Janina Sajka writes: 
> Hi, Addison: 
> 
> Let's then do it Thursday at 5PM. 
> 
> Does that work for others on this thread? 
> 
> I'll adjust our APA planning accordingly, and I'll ask our staff contact 
> Michael Cooper to set up a one-time Webex we can share with our non W3C 
> colleagues who have raised some of the questions in this thread. 
> 
> I may not have mentioned it previously, but part of APA's direct 
> interest is in identifying AAC languages appropriately. Our 
> Personalization TF will have a demo in hand during TPAC of web content 
> auto transformed for Bliss symbol users. The technology they're 
> prototyping should allow the AAC user to specify their preferred AAC 
> lang and get similar results. 
> 
> Our Personalization TF Co-Facilitators will be in Japan and will want to 
> participate in our conversation. 
> 
> Janina 
> 
> Phillips, Addison writes: 
> > Hi Janina, 
> > 
> > Thanks for the note. 
> > 
> > I personally can't do Friday at 5 PM, since my flight to Tokyo is at 4:00 PM. I could do Thursday. I'm also happy to do some other evening or to host a call as part of the I18N teleconference outside of TPAC. Others in the I18N WG might be able to accommodate different days or times. 
> > 
> > How do you want to resolve this? 
> > 
> > Addison 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message----- 
> > > From: mailto:janina@rednote.net [mailto:mailto:janina@rednote.net] 
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2019 12:39 PM 
> > > To: Phillips, Addison <mailto:addison@lab126.com> 
> > > Cc: mailto:ishida@w3.org; mailto:atsushi@w3.org; mailto:xfq@w3.org; W3C WAI Accessible 
> > > Platform Architectures <mailto:public-apa@w3.org>; mailto:public-i18n-core@w3.org; 
> > > Fourney, David <mailto:david.fourney@usask.ca>; Christian Galinski 
> > > <mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at>; 'klaus.miesenberger' 
> > > <mailto:klaus.miesenberger@jku.at>; mailto:hoeckner@hilfsgemeinschaft.at; mailto:shadi@w3.org; 
> > > mailto:alejandro.moledo@edf-feph.org; mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com; 'Kasinskaite, 
> > > Irmgarda' <mailto:I.Kasinskaite@unesco.org>; mailto:drude@xs4all.nl; mailto:stevelee@w3.org; 
> > > 'FERRES Mercè' <mailto:FERRES@iso.org>; Charles LaPierre <mailto:charlesl@benetech.org>; 
> > > mailto:p13n@rednote.net 
> > > Subject: Re: W3C I18N & Accessibility; ISO 639 language codes 
> > > 
> > > Thank you, Addison, for the very prompt and positive response. And thank you 
> > > for offering to make room on your Monday-Tuesday agenda. However, I will be 
> > > wearing a different badge representing a different contracted consulting 
> > > interest Monday-Tuesday, and I hesitate to step away on those days for APA 
> > > agenda. 
> > > 
> > > I believe many of the people cc'd who have raised these questions with us are in 
> > > Europe. So, if we're to offer them a reasonable opportunity to dial in, the very 
> > > end of the day is likely the most congenial opportunity, though admittedly 
> > > horrible for North Americans. 
> > > 
> > > What if we took some time at the very end of the week? Say starting at 5PM 
> > > Friday? I believe that would be 9AM for our friends in Europe. 
> > > 
> > > Would that work for I18N? For whoever is still at TPAC? 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Janina 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Phillips, Addison writes: 
> > > > <chair hat on> 
> > > > I would be happy to meet with our A11Y colleagues during a portion of the 
> > > I18N meeting Monday/Tuesday. I would also be glad to meet with A11Y folks on 
> > > Thursday or part of Friday (speaking personally) and I'm sure others in our group 
> > > who are present would also attend. 
> > > > 
> > > > <chair hat off> 
> > > > This thread seems confused? BCP 47 includes support for ISO 639, parts 1, 2, 
> > > and 3, including a large number of sign languages. Alpha2 subtags are used for 
> > > languages that have alpha2 codes assigned by ISO 639-1. Languages that have 
> > > no 639-1 code but which are assigned codes by 639-2/3 use the alpha3 subtag to 
> > > form language tags. These subtags are widely and thoroughly supported in 
> > > HTML, CSS and other Web standards. Some other standards (in the structured 
> > > data space and notably related to DC) have not fully embraced BCP47, which is a 
> > > source of woe for them. Some of the other considerations, such as length, are 
> > > dealt with already by BCP47 and in actual fact the use and adoption of Unicode 
> > > Locale Identifiers have placed truly huge language tags into production. 
> > > > 
> > > > I'd be glad to discuss the details here. A more thorough reading and/or in 
> > > depth response is probably warranted on my part. Please let me know how best 
> > > to meet. 
> > > > 
> > > > Addison 
> > > > 
> > > > Addison Phillips 
> > > > Sr. Principal SDE – I18N (Amazon) 
> > > > Chair (W3C I18N WG) 
> > > > Editor (IETF BCP 47) 
> > > > 
> > > > Internationalization is not a feature. 
> > > > It is an architecture. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > -----Original Message----- 
> > > > > From: mailto:janina@rednote.net [mailto:mailto:janina@rednote.net] 
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2019 11:13 AM 
> > > > > To: Phillips, Addison <mailto:addison@lab126.com>; mailto:ishida@w3.org; 
> > > > > mailto:atsushi@w3.org; mailto:xfq@w3.org 
> > > > > Cc: W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures <mailto:public-apa@w3.org>; 
> > > > > public- mailto:i18n-core@w3.org; Fourney, David <mailto:david.fourney@usask.ca>; 
> > > > > Christian Galinski <mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at>; 'klaus.miesenberger' 
> > > > > <mailto:klaus.miesenberger@jku.at>; mailto:hoeckner@hilfsgemeinschaft.at; 
> > > > > mailto:shadi@w3.org; mailto:alejandro.moledo@edf-feph.org; mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com; 
> > > > > 'Kasinskaite, Irmgarda' <mailto:I.Kasinskaite@unesco.org>; mailto:drude@xs4all.nl; 
> > > > > mailto:stevelee@w3.org; 'FERRES Mercè' <mailto:FERRES@iso.org>; Charles LaPierre 
> > > > > <mailto:charlesl@benetech.org>; mailto:p13n@rednote.net 
> > > > > Subject: W3C I18N & Accessibility; ISO 639 language codes 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Dear W3C I18N Colleagues: 
> > > > > 
> > > > > With a growing list of cc's accumulated from email exchanged in the 
> > > > > past few days ... 
> > > > > 
> > > > > APA would like an opportunity to explore what actions W3C can and 
> > > > > should take toward more useful language specification in web content. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Unfortunately, we meet on different days at TPAC. Also, our TPAC 
> > > > > calendar has become a little crowded. However, we still have some 
> > > > > remaining open slots where we might have a preliminary conversation, 
> > > > > should any I18N people still be in Fukuoka and available later in 
> > > > > the week. APA will have dialin capability, should a conversation during TPAC 
> > > prove possible: 
> > > > > 
> > > > > https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2019 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Or, it may be simpler to say we should take this topic up post TPAC, 
> > > > > as a number of the principals with specific knowledge of the 
> > > > > accessibility issues we want to discuss will NOT be in Japan. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I will defer to your judgement whether a brief introductory 
> > > > > conversation in Fukuoka makes sense given limited availability. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > However we calendar the conversation, I would request, on behalf of 
> > > > > APA and particularly our Personalization Task Force that we look for 
> > > > > an opportunity to address the issues detailed in the email thread 
> > > > > forwarded here.Our TF is moving forward with technology that should 
> > > > > significantly improve the web experience of many people living with 
> > > > > various cognitive and learning disabilities. APA also continues to 
> > > > > have an interest in uptake of the work we began during the 
> > > > > development of HTML 5.0 on media accessibility, which brings in our interest 
> > > in correctly identifying sign language videos. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > The above is the simplest agenda description I can come up with at the 
> > > moment. 
> > > > > Below are some interesting details that should help better explain 
> > > > > the concern and hope for improved content markup. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Looking forward to greeting many of you in person in Fukuoka, 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Janina 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Fourney, David writes: 
> > > > > > Hi Janina, 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > With respect to standardizing lang codes for AAC (i.e., 
> > > > > > Augmentative and alternative communication), Chritian is better 
> > > > > > able to update you on status and timelines. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I am responding to your question because I wanted to point out 
> > > > > > that this proposal (or at least answering the question of whether 
> > > > > > 3-letter support is sufficiently in place) solves several issues relating to AAC. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > For example, the ability to use the ISO 639-3 language code for 
> > > > > > Blissymbols (lang="zbl") would be possible / better supported on 
> > > > > > the web if we can be certain that both HTML and user agents 
> > > > > > support such 3-letter encoding. (There remains, of course, the 
> > > > > > issue of getting Blissymbolic script into the ISO script code 
> > > > > > and/or Unicode so they are properly displayed.) 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > On the issue of scripts, as I said earlier, it would be useful for 
> > > > > > users to be able to specify (either as the creator of the content 
> > > > > > or its user) any preferred scripts. My example below is Russian 
> > > > > > presented in a different script, but the issue also applies to specific AAC. 
> > > > > > (e.g., This issue would aid the arguments supporting the 
> > > > > > development of standards for Blissymbolic script and adding 
> > > > > > appropriate script 
> > > > > > codes.) 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > As for the signed modality (including sign languages, but also 
> > > > > > other manual-visual systems), this proposal tries to capture this 
> > > > > > AAC technique by using language codes for the natural sign 
> > > > > > languages (e.g., 
> > > > > > lang="ase") and the more generic "sgn" for all others. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > As I mentioned to Christian, the current implementation of HTML5 
> > > > > > may already address some of these issues. As mentioned below, 
> > > > > > BCP47 may need to to be expanded to support a longer length, which will 
> > > impact HTML. 
> > > > > > Further BCP47 (and HTML) could eventually specify a minimum 3 
> > > > > > character length. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Thus the need for user agent support for three-character codes 
> > > > > > (status 
> > > > > > unknown) and the need for W3C to begin transitioning to the wider 
> > > > > > use of the 3-character code (i.e., lang="eng" rather than 
> > > > > > lang="en") is the main meat of the discussion/proposal. Updating 
> > > > > > W3C documentation will impact all examples currently using 
> > > > > > lang="xx" (e.g., this will impact the supporting documents of WCAG 2.1). 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I hope this further information helps. Please feel free to contact 
> > > > > > me if you have any questions or concerns. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Thanks, 
> > > > > > David Fourney 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > On 2019-09-04 3:23 p.m., Christian Galinski wrote: 
> > > > > > > Hi, Janina, 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Thank you for your positive reply. I am sorry that I cannot 
> > > > > > > attend the TCAP meeting – unless there is the possibility to 
> > > > > > > attend through teleconferencing. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > This would also be the ideal way to participate for David 
> > > > > > > Fourney, who could represent ISO/IEC-JTC 1/SC 35 in this matter. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Please be so kind as to put the issue of language 
> > > > > > > identifiers/codes for sign languages explained below on the 
> > > > > > > agenda of the upcoming TCAP meeting in Japan and discuss how it 
> > > > > > > could be solved, duly taking into account that language codes 
> > > > > > > increasingly (for a variety of purposes) have to be combined with other 
> > > coding schemes. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Below please find a summary of the discussion concerning (1) alpha-2 vs. 
> > > > > > > alpha-3 language identifiers for sign languages in video 
> > > > > > > programs and apps and (2) the combination of codes to further 
> > > > > > > specify the language used, the regional and other language 
> > > > > > > variety and the script in which a written file is rendered. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Technically speaking there may be more complexity or deeper 
> > > > > > > issues behind the questions raised. There may also be new needs 
> > > > > > > for coordination. We are looking forward to your comments. If 
> > > > > > > there would be a slot for the discussion of the issues at the 
> > > > > > > TCAP meeting, David Fourney and me could join by calling in. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Best regards 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Christian 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > *1 Background:* 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The issue at hand is a technical problem that occurs when you 
> > > > > > > want to assign language identifiers to sign languages, if the 
> > > > > > > code length of the identifier is limited to alpha-2. However, 
> > > > > > > ISO 639-1:2002 “Codes for the representation of names of languages – 
> > > Part 1: 
> > > > > > > Alpha-2 code” does not provide identifiers for sign languages. 
> > > > > > > There are estimates of the number of sign languages between more 
> > > > > > > than 300 and up to 500. About 150 are assigned 3-letter language 
> > > > > > > identifiers in ISO 639-3 “Codes for the representation of names 
> > > > > > > of languages – Part 3: Alpha-3 code for comprehensive coverage 
> > > > > > > of languages”. In this connection, David Fourney also referred 
> > > > > > > to 2019 as UN's International Year of Indigenous Languages – in 
> > > > > > > some indigenous language communities sign languages exist. ‘Sign 
> > > > > > > languages’ differ from ‘signed languages’ insofar as they are 
> > > > > > > the main language for Deaf and Hard of Hearing persons to 
> > > > > > > express themselves and largely differ from the language 
> > > > > > > spoken/written by the language community in which the respective Deaf 
> > > and Hard of Hearing persons are living. 
> > > > > > > Compared to ‘sign languages’, ‘signed language’ is a language 
> > > > > > > modality largely representing the spoken or written form of a 
> > > > > > > language (e.g. “Signed Exact English”) – thus any language can 
> > > > > > > be signed in this way which can be identified by adding the 
> > > > > > > identifier “sgn” to 
> > > > > the respective language identifier. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > *2 Request to W3C/TCAP:* 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The issue was raised at the ISO/IEC-JTC 1/SC 35 meeting in 2018 
> > > > > > > in Okayama “User interfaces” where I reported on standardizing 
> > > > > > > activities of ISO/TC 37 “Language and terminology” referring to 
> > > > > > > language 
> > > > > coding. 
> > > > > > > David Fourney made TC 37 aware of the fact that there is a “deficiency” 
> > > > > > > in the ISO 639 series when it comes to the coding of sign 
> > > > > > > languages in video technology. The issue was taken up by two WGs 
> > > > > > > in ISO/TC 37 working on the fundamental terminology of language 
> > > > > > > coding and language varieties in a coordinated way. Out of the 
> > > > > > > discussions emerged the clarification of the above-mentioned 
> > > > > > > distinction of ‘sign language and ‘signed language’. The WGs 
> > > > > > > formulated a request to ISO/IEC-JTC 1/SC 35 to clarify the 
> > > > > > > matter and formulate a recommendation to ISO/IEC-JTC 1/SC 35. At 
> > > > > > > its last meeting ISO/IEC-JTC 1/SC 35 in Shanghai on 2 August 
> > > > > > > unanimously approved 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > *Resolution 2019-69: Requests that Alpha-3 codes be used and 
> > > > > > > recommended * 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ISO/IEC JTC1/SC35 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >   * recognizes that the application of the 2-letter (alpha-2) code today 
> > > > > > >     is not sufficient for use in programs and apps related to user 
> > > > > > >     interfaces which is particularly detrimental when needed for 
> > > > > > >     identifying individual languages (including individual sign 
> > > > > > >     languages) in user interfaces. 
> > > > > > >   * resolves to recommend the use of 3-letter codes for language 
> > > > > > >     identification, wherever they can be applied 
> > > > > > >   * requests its chair to contact W3C to ask that they recommend the use 
> > > > > > >     of 3-letter identifiers for the names of languages wherever used 
> > > > > > >     according to: 
> > > > > > >       o ISO 639-2 "Codes for the representation of names of languages 
> > > > > > >         -Part 2: Alpha-3 code" and 
> > > > > > >       o ISO 639-3 "Codes for the representation of names of languages - 
> > > > > > >         Part 3: Alpha-3 code for comprehensive coverage of languages" 
> > > > > > >         (which includes additional languages beyond those in ISO 
> > > > > > > 639-2) 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > These can be recommended either in addition to or in replacement 
> > > > > > > for the 2-letter language identifiers as defined in ISO 639-1 
> > > > > > > "Codes for the representation of names of languages - Part 1: Alpha-2 
> > > code". 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Here the issue as explained by David Fourney: 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The technical issue lies primarily with the HTML5 <video> 
> > > > > > > element and how it supports the HTML lang attribute. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > A <video> allows for one or more <source> files (which can be 
> > > > > > > audio and or video tracks) as well as one or more <track> files 
> > > > > > > (for subtitles, captions, transcripts, etc.).As a developer, I 
> > > > > > > want to specify the language of the captions, audio, and video 
> > > > > > > so I can meet WCAG's 
> > > > > SCs. 
> > > > > > > (WCAG SC 3.1.1 and SC 3.1.2 require the specification of the 
> > > > > > > language of 
> > > > > > > content.) 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > HTML allows the specification of the language of content on 
> > > > > > > pretty much any element using HTML5's lang attribute. This means 
> > > > > > > that I can specify the language of a caption file, an audio 
> > > > > > > track, or 
> > > > > > > (presumably) a video track. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > As a user, if my media player supports it, I can select an audio 
> > > > > > > track in one language (e.g., French) and a caption track in 
> > > > > > > another (e.g., Norwegian). Theoretically, I can also select a 
> > > > > > > video track in whatever language I want. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > *That's where the problem lies*. If the audio is embedded in the 
> > > > > > > video file, then obviously the language of the video is the 
> > > > > > > language of the audio. This can be any spoken language. 
> > > > > > > Typically, this is indicated with a two-character code. (This is 
> > > > > > > also true with audio sources and 
> > > > > > > captioning.) 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Many languages do NOT have a two-character code. (Many many 
> > > > > > > languages face this issue. The SIL code tables provides a list 
> > > > > > > of languages that have one or both types of codes: 
> > > > > > > https://iso639-3.sil.org/code_tables/639/data) 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > But, what if there is no audio in the video? What if the 
> > > > > > > language of the video is in fact a visual language? What if it is a sign 
> > > language? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I should be able to specify the language of the content (e.g., 
> > > > > > > lang="ase"). Since no sign languages have a two-character code, 
> > > > > > > this must be a three-character code. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > *3 Combinations of codes:* 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Increasingly a higher degree of granularity is becoming 
> > > > > > > necessary for identifying not only languages and their regional 
> > > > > > > varieties, but also other dimensions of language variation, such 
> > > > > > > as a speaker’s language register or communication anomaly. So 
> > > > > > > far ISO 639 series deals with combinations of the language 
> > > > > > > identifiers with the country (or major 
> > > > > > > subdivision) code acc. to ISO 3166 series and script code acc. 
> > > > > > > to ISO 15924. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Here again David Fourney’s explanation: 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > With respect to the size of the string used to fully specify 
> > > > > > > languages, I recommend looking at IETF's BCP47 
> > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47. 
> > > > > > > BCP47 is the document HTML seems to rely upon as well. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > W3C could ask the authors of BCP47 to require a new minimum 
> > > > > > > string size (if it is not already large enough) and recommend 
> > > > > > > the expected use of separators. I suggest using a larger string 
> > > > > > > than 12 characters to future proof this decision. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I recommend W3C provide examples in all of their discussions on 
> > > > > > > the use of the lang attribute. These examples should all start 
> > > > > > > with the 3-character code as its base. All examples using the 
> > > > > > > 2-character code should be updated. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > With respect to scripts, as I recall, HTML relies entirely on 
> > > > > > > the specification of the character set. Typically, this is now 
> > > > > > > set to Unicode which is thought to provide the necessary 
> > > > > > > characters to write in various languages. As I understand the 
> > > > > > > situation (and I could be wrong), authors do not have the 
> > > > > > > ability to specify the script of their 
> > > > > content. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > You are correct that it would be exceedingly useful to be able 
> > > > > > > to deliberately specify a script (rather than a character set). 
> > > > > > > I envisioned this when I wrote ISO/IEC 24756:2009 and, to a 
> > > > > > > lesser extent, ISO/IEC 20071-23. For example, in languages that 
> > > > > > > have more than one script, it would be useful for users to be 
> > > > > > > able to specify that they want captions in one preferred script 
> > > > > > > (e.g., a user might want Russian captions to be presented in Roman script 
> > > rather than Cyrillic). 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Von: Janina Sajka <mailto:janina@rednote.net> 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. August 2019 18:17 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > An: lisa.seeman <mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com> 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Cc: mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at; W3C WAI Accessible Platform 
> > > > > > > Architectures <mailto:public-apa@w3.org> 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Betreff: Re: Language codes and iso639 series 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Hi, Lisa, Christian, All: 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > It's unclear to me what kind of assistance you're seeking, and 
> > > > > > > specifically what agendum we might propose for a joint meeting 
> > > > > > > during TPAC. Christian, are you planning to attend TPAC? It 
> > > > > > > would be helpful, as I don't see us effectively carrying your concerns 
> > > second hand. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I'm aware, at least to a degree, of ISO and IETF standardization 
> > > > > > > on language coding to include support for specifying sign 
> > > > > > > language usage,[1] but those are not activities directly in 
> > > > > > > W3C's I18N remit,[2] though working in coordination with those groups 
> > > clearly is. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Is there a W3C i18n document Christian is looking to affect? Or 
> > > > > > > perhaps you're proposing something W3C might publish? APA would 
> > > > > > > clearly be interested, but the specifics just aren't in your 
> > > > > > > email so I'm left guessing. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > We were certainly aware of the multiplicity of sign languages 
> > > > > > > when we created our "Media Accessibility User Requirements 
> > > > > > > (MAUR)"[3] document during the process of defining HTML 5.0, and 
> > > > > > > I believe HTML 
> > > > > > > 5 supports that well for alternative media. But, I don't think 
> > > > > > > we've done anything specifically beyond that activity in this space. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > PS: Any news on standardizing lang codes for AAC? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Please feel free to say more. I'd like to be helpful if I can. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Best, 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Janina 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > [1] https://www.evertype.com/standards/iso639/sgn.html 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > [2] https://www.w3.org/i18n 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/media-accessibility-reqs/ 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Lisa Seeman writes: 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >> Hi Janina 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >> Christian, who is cc'd is working on improving language code 
> > > > > > >> support so 
> > > > > that it works for sign langage and the combinations. For example 
> > > > > English sign language with Canadian dialect. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >> 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >> Can we bring this up at TPAC with internationalisation? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >> 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >> All the best 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >> 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >> Lisa Seeman 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >> 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > LinkedIn, Twitter 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- 
> > > > > > > Von: Fourney, David <mailto:david.fourney@usask.ca> 
> > > > > > > Gesendet: Montag, 19. August 2019 13:20 
> > > > > > > An: mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at 
> > > > > > > <mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at> 
> > > > > > > Cc: klaus.miesenberger <mailto:klaus.miesenberger@jku.at> 
> > > > > > > Betreff: Re: Re: HTML etc. and ISO 639-1 2-letter code 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Hi Christian, 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > With respect to the size of the string used to fully specify 
> > > > > > > languages, I recommend looking at IETF's BCP47 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > BCP47 is the document HTML seems to rely upon as well. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > W3C could ask the authors of BCP47 to require a new minimum 
> > > > > > > string size (if it is not already large enough) and recommend 
> > > > > > > the expected use of separators. I suggest using a larger string 
> > > > > > > than 12 characters to future proof this decision. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I recommend W3C provide examples in all of their discussions on 
> > > > > > > the use of the lang attribute. These examples should all start 
> > > > > > > with the 3-character code as its base. All examples using the 
> > > > > > > 2-character code should be updated. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > With respect to scripts, as I recall, HTML relies entirely on 
> > > > > > > the specification of the character set. Typically, this is now 
> > > > > > > set to Unicode which is thought to provide the necessary 
> > > > > > > characters to write in various languages. As I understand the 
> > > > > > > situation (and I could be wrong), authors do not have the 
> > > > > > > ability to specify the script of their 
> > > > > content. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > You are correct that it would be exceedingly useful to be able 
> > > > > > > to deliberately specify a script (rather than a character set). 
> > > > > > > I envisioned this when I wrote ISO/IEC 24756:2009 and, to a 
> > > > > > > lesser extent, ISO/IEC 20071-23. For example, in languages that 
> > > > > > > have more than one script, it would be useful for users to be 
> > > > > > > able to specify that they want captions in one preferred script 
> > > > > > > (e.g., a user might want Russian captions to be presented in Roman script 
> > > rather than Cyrillic). 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Finally, on the choice of codes. I strongly recommend that ISO 
> > > > > > > and W3C set an explicit recommendation on exactly which code set to 
> > > use. 
> > > > > > > The existence of multiple 3-character sets will add to the 
> > > > > > > problem rather than solve anything. ISO will need to unify this 
> > > > > > > work to help ease the confusion. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > David. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ________________________________________ 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > From: mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at 
> > > > > > > <mailto:mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at> 
> > > > > > > mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at 
> > > > > > > <mailto:mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at> 
> > > > > > > <mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at 
> > > > > > > <mailto:mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at>> 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 3:06 AM 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > To: Fourney, David 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Cc: klaus.miesenberger 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Subject: Fwd: Re: HTML etc. and ISO 639-1 2-letter code 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Hi David, 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Great thanks to you for this excellent clarification! 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The recommendation to use only the 3-letter code for languages 
> > > > > > > obviously is only one step in the direction of handling language 
> > > > > > > codes in various combinations with other codes and thus 
> > > > > > > indicating language varieties to some extent. At present 
> > > > > > > language varieties can only be indicated in a rudimentary form. 
> > > > > > > ISO/TR 21636 "Indication and description of language varieties" 
> > > > > > > will pave the way for a future much more detailed coding of varieties. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > At present we have at our disposal for coding languages 
> > > > > > > (disregarding the 2-letter code according to ISO 639-1): 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > - 3-letter language codes (all small caps) according to ISO 
> > > > > > > 639-2 and 639-3 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > - 3-letter codes for countries and their subdivisions (all 
> > > > > > > capitalized) according to ISO 3166-1 and 3166-2 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >    (I think we should recommend also here the use of the 
> > > > > > > 3-letter 
> > > > > > > code) 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > - 4-letter code for scripts /and script variants/ (first letter 
> > > > > > > capitalized) With 10 digits (12 - if separators are added) we 
> > > > > > > can thus cope with a lot of variation, under given limitations. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > In the case of sign languages (being true sign languages - i.e. 
> > > > > > > mother tongues for the Deaf and Hard-of-Hearing) we have at our 
> > > disposal: 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > - 3-letter language code (all small caps) according to ISO 639-3 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >    (to be extended towards including further sign languages) 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > - 3-letter codes for countries and their subdivisions (all 
> > > > > > > capitalized) according to ISO 3166-1 and 3166-2 With 6 digits (7 
> > > > > > > - if separators are 
> > > > > > > added) we can thus cope with some variation, under given limitations. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > In the case of the language variety "signed language" (e.g. 
> > > > > > > Signed Exact 
> > > > > > > English) we have at our disposal: 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > - "sgn" as indicator for "signed language" 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > - 3-letter language codes (all small caps) according to ISO 
> > > > > > > 639-2 and 639-3 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > - 3-letter codes for countries and their subdivisions (all 
> > > > > > > capitalized) according to ISO 3166-1 and 3166-2 With 9 digits 
> > > > > > > (11 - if separators are 
> > > > > > > added) we can cope with a lot of variation, under given limitations. 
> > > > > > > sgn-eng-AUS would refer to the Australian variety of Signed Exact English. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Would this mean that we should recommend - under given 
> > > > > > > circumstances and as a step in the direction of further 
> > > > > > > necessary varieties in the future 
> > > > > > > - a minimum of 12 digits (incl. separators) for coding languages (incl. 
> > > > > > > sign languages and signed language)? Is this realistic, and if 
> > > > > > > so, is it sufficient? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Best regards 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Christian 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > ---------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---------- 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > Von: "Fourney, David" <mailto:david.fourney@usask.ca 
> > > > > > > <mailto:mailto:david.fourney@usask.ca>> 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > An: "mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at 
> > > > > > > mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at 
> > > <mailto:mailto:christian.galinski@chello.atmailto:%20christian.galinski@chello.at>" 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > <mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at 
> > > > > > > <mailto:mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at>> 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > Cc: "klaus.miesenberger" <mailto:klaus.miesenberger@jku.at 
> > > > > > > <mailto:mailto:klaus.miesenberger@jku.at>>, hoeckner 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > <mailto:hoeckner@hilfsgemeinschaft.at 
> > > > > > > <mailto:mailto:hoeckner@hilfsgemeinschaft.at>> 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > Datum: 17. August 2019 um 02:00 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > Betreff: Re: HTML etc. and ISO 639-1 2-letter code 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > Hi Christian, 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > To answer your specific question: There is no connection to CSS. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > Cascading Style Sheets are used only for the styling and 
> > > > > > > presentation 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > of content. For example, I would use CSS to indicate the font 
> > > > > > > I want, 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > whether to make the text bold, and where to put it on the screen. 
> > > > > > > CSS 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > is not for specifying languages, this is the role of HTML. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > The technical issue lies primarily with the HTML5 <video> 
> > > > > > > element and 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > how it supports the HTML lang attribute. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > A <video> allows for one or more <source> files (which can be 
> > > > > > > audio 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > and or video tracks) as well as one or more <track> files 
> > > > > > > (for 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > subtitles, captions, transcripts, etc.). 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > As a developer, I want to specify the language of the 
> > > > > > > captions, audio, 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > and video so I can meet meet WCAG's SCs. (WCAG SC 3.1.1 and 
> > > > > > > SC 
> > > > > > > 3.1.2 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > require the specification of the language of content.) 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > HTML allows the specification of the language of content on 
> > > > > > > pretty 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > much any element using HTML5's lang attribute. This means 
> > > > > > > that I can 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > specify the language of a caption file, an audio track, or 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > (presumably) a video track. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > As a user, if my media player supports it, I can select an 
> > > > > > > audio track 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > in one language (e.g., French) and a caption track in another 
> > > > > > > (e.g., 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > Norwegian). Theoretically, I can also select a video track in 
> > > > > > > whatever 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > language I want. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > That's where the problem lies. If the audio is embedded in 
> > > > > > > the video 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > file, then obviously the language of the video is the 
> > > > > > > language of the 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > audio. This can be any spoken language. Typically, this is 
> > > > > > > indicated 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > with a two-character code. (This is also true with audio 
> > > > > > > sources and 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > captioning.) 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > Many languages do NOT have a two-character code. (Many many 
> > > > > > > languages 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > face this issue. The SIL code tables provides a list of 
> > > > > > > languages that 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > have one or both types of codes: 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > https://iso639-3.sil.org/code_tables/639/data) 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >> (A reminder that 2019 is the UN's International Year of 
> > > > > > >> Indigenous 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > Languages.) 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > But, what if there is no audio in the video? What if the 
> > > > > > > language of 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > the video is in fact a visual language? What if it is a sign language? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > I should be able to specify the language of the content 
> > > > > > > (e.g., 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > lang="ase"). Since no sign languages have a two-character 
> > > > > > > code, this 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > must be a three-character code. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > So the first issue is: "Can I do this?" 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  >  From reading the HTML 5.2 and some IETF specifications, I 
> > > > > > > MIGHT be 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > able to use a three-character code, but its not very clear IF I CAN. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > The specification appears to allow a code of 6 to 8 characters in length. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > This suggests a combination of language and region codes, 
> > > > > > > including 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > hyphens, might fit a three-character language code plus a 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > two-character region code, but not much else. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > Resources on this include IETF's BCP47 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > and the HTML5.2 specification 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > https://www.w3.org/TR/html52/dom.html#the-lang-and-xmllang-attri 
> > > > > > > bute 
> > > > > > > s 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > The living specification discusses this at 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#the-lang-and-xml:lang-attributes 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > The second issue is: "Will it work?" 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > If a browser sees a three-character language code, will it 
> > > > > > > know what 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > to do with it? What about a media player? What about a screen reader? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > Its all well and good that I can specify my language, but not 
> > > > > > > if it is 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > not supported (i.e., my user agent won't be able to handle it). 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > Setting aside <video>, I would also point out that this 
> > > > > > > second issue 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > applies to the browser in general. Is there full support for 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > specifying the language of a document using a three-character 
> > > > > > > code 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > (e.g., <html lang="eng"> vs. <html lang="en">). 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > As I mentioned in Ottawa, what we need the W3C to do is: 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 1. Confirm how large a language code can be used within the 
> > > > > > > HTML lang 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > attribute and determine if this length is large enough given 
> > > > > > > the 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > three-character codes of ISO 639-2 and the various region and 
> > > > > > > script 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > codes that can be appended to it. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 2. Confirm that user agents are required to support long 
> > > > > > > language 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > codes (via the lang attribute), not just the two-character 
> > > > > > > codes that 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > are specified in ISO 639-1. This is important because, if the 
> > > > > > > HTML 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > specifications allow for rather long codes but the user 
> > > > > > > agents do not, 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > then using a long code will not work. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > To my mind, there should be no issue because it is just a 
> > > > > > > language 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > indication code. Most of the time user agents should just 
> > > > > > > accept any 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > code and do nothing further with it. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > This issue was the source of my concern only because you 
> > > > > > > mentioned the 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > demand to freeze ISO 639-1 from 20+ years ago. The freeze 
> > > > > > > request 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > suggests to me that user agents only support a small number 
> > > > > > > of codes 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > and intend to act in some way on these codes. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 3. Confirm that the lang attribute (of any length) can be 
> > > > > > > used on any 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > HTML element in a meaningful way, including the specification 
> > > > > > > of the 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > language of a video track (e.g., <source src="movie.mp4" 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > type='video/mp4' lang='ase'>). 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >> Ultimately, the need is to determine if user agents support 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > three-character codes so that the specification of a video or 
> > > > > > > a 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > document in a language that only has a three-character code 
> > > > > > > will 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > actually work. I would expect someone at W3C will know what 
> > > > > > > support is (or is not) available. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > I hope that this explanation helps you. Please let me know if 
> > > > > > > you have 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > any questions. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > Thanks, 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > David. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > On 2019-08-15 12:21 p.m., mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at 
> > > > > > > <mailto:mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at> 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at <mailto:mailto:christian.galinski@chello.at> 
> > > wrote: 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > Hi, David, 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > How are you doing? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > Further to our recent discussions I would like to ask you 
> > > > > > > to clarify 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > one more technical question: concerning the use of the 
> > > > > > > alpha-2 code 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > (acc. to ISO 639-1?) in HTML and/or XHTML and/or HTML5 
> > > > > > > which you 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > mentioned is hindering certain functions/features necessary 
> > > > > > > for the 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > Deaf and hard of hearing. Is there a connection to CSS? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > Could you please elaborate a bit on this technical question? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > If there is an issue, how should it be presented to W3C/TCAP? 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > Best regards 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > Christian 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > p.s. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > -- 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Janina Sajka 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Linux Foundation Fellow 
> > > > > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:    http://a11y.org 
> > > > > 
> > > > > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) 
> > > > > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures    http://www.w3.org/wai/apa 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > 
> > > Janina Sajka 
> > > 
> > > Linux Foundation Fellow 
> > > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:    http://a11y.org 
> > > 
> > > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) 
> > > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures    http://www.w3.org/wai/apa 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Janina Sajka 
> 
> Linux Foundation Fellow 
> Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:    http://a11y.org 
> 
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) 
> Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures    http://www.w3.org/wai/apa 
> 
 
-- 
 
Janina Sajka 
 
Linux Foundation Fellow 
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:    http://a11y.org 
 
The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) 
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures    http://www.w3.org/wai/apa