- From: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:17:31 +0100
- To: Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp>
- Cc: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>, CJK discussion <public-i18n-cjk@w3.org>
Koji Ishii, Sun, 22 Jan 2012 23:16:37 -0500: > Thank you for writing this up, Leif. > > While I agree that rb/rb/rt/rt pattern is good, I don't know > prohibiting rb/rt/rb/rt is a good idea. What are the motivation and > benefits to prohibit that? The motivation is to solve - or at leaсt minimize - the problems related to the difference, the gap, between what the visual, human parser sees on screen and what computer parser sees [in the source code and in the DOM]. Since authors/designes are often visually orientated, this gap may often get unnoticed unless the conformance checker whines about it. > I think it purely depends on how author wants to break words/letters > in his mind, and therefore the less constrains, the better, unless > there're good reasons. By making the order option, one would have to leave this issue completely up to authoring advice. What about mixed order? rb/rt/rb/rb/rb/rt/rt/rt It strikes me as a bit unclear how to put it into the spec that the author can do as he/she wishes, depending on how he perceives it. Does the author really know how he/she perceives it until he/she has tested the result of the code in a translation service, in find-in-page, in a spell checker, a screen reader? Can you mention an example of when it would be *objectively* wrong to do rb/rb/rt/rt? By, instead, making it a conformance issue, authors are helped to do the right thing. Note also that if we have foo <ruby><rb>W</rb><rb>W</rb><rb>W</rb> <rt>World</rt><rt>Wide</rt><rt>Web</rt> </ruby> bar then a find-in-page search for 'foo WWW' will locate 'foo' plus the the ruby base above. By which I want to emphasize that find-in-page considers the ruby *base* as the text as the text that 'sits on the line', together with 'foo' and 'bar'. Leif Halvard Silli > Regards, > Koji > > -----Original Message----- > From: Leif Halvard Silli [mailto:xn--mlform-iua@målform.no] > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 12:09 PM > To: Koji Ishii > Cc: Richard Ishida; CJK discussion > Subject: Planning to update the IncludeRB change proposal [Was: > Letter-by-letter (or syllable-by-syllable) (was RE: HTML5 and ruby] > > I have updated my IncludeRB Change Proposal [1]. Until now, it mostly > focused on word-by-word related issues that support the inclusion of > <rb> in HTML5. Namely: compatibility with existing code and tools, > ability to identify the ruby base [or base 'word'] via CSS 2.1, > problems related to use of ad-hoc wrappers such as <span> and > metadata issues related to accessibility, language tagging etc. > > However, now I have updated the IncludeRB CP to also solve the > letter-by-letter related details: > > [A] Letter-by-letter conformance: The IncludeRB proposal now says > that there can only be a single adjacent par of <rb><rt> inside a > <ruby>. > Thus > > NOTE: An alternative solution could be to simply say that <ruby> > should not not be used for letter-by-letter ruby unless one also uses > <rbc>. > > Comments on this detail? > > [B] Complex ruby: <rbc> and <rtc> should be permitted. However Due to > the parser differences [2], my CP reinstates only <rbc>. As a matter > of fact, in Internet Explorer, then <rbc> creates zero problems - the > ruby looks fine, even if you wrap the ruby base inside <rb>. And in > Webkit, then the change of content model - [A] - creates a need for > <rbc>, as it tends to fall apart otherwise. The introduction of <rbc> > does not allow us to create double sided ruby - but at least it > allows us to create ruby where the letter-by-letter should be > possible to avoid. > Example of what the suggestion implies: > <ruby> > <rbc> > <rb>W</rb><rb>W</rb><rb>W</rb> > </rbc> > <rp>[</rp><rt>World</rt><rt>Wide</rt><rt>Web</rt><rp>]</rp > </ruby> > Question: Should <rbc> be obligatory? Or should it be allowed to > ommit it? Omitting it works in IE. In my CP, I made it optional. > > Comments? > > [C] <rtc> can be introduced in HTML6, and for that reason, my CP says > that the HTML5 *parser* should be updated to not auto-close the <rtc> > elemetn when the parser sees <rt> or <rp>. > > Feedback of any kind is welcome. If you think you can write a better > and/or more realistic CP and don't want to cooperate with me in > making this one better, then please feel free to 'steal' - but it > would be nice if you tell in your CP that you borrowed some ideas. > > [1] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/IncludeRB > [2] > http://www.w3.org/mid/20120122134024833859.3dc4f444@xn--mlform-iua.no > -- > leif h silli
Received on Monday, 23 January 2012 11:18:09 UTC