- From: Najib Tounsi <ntounsi@emi.ac.ma>
- Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 09:02:26 +0000
- To: "Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin" <aharon@google.com>
- CC: Matitiahu Allouche <matial@il.ibm.com>, "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>, Ehsan Akhgari <ehsan@mozilla.com>, public-i18n-bidi@w3.org
Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin wrote: > Ok, so how about we propose it as you have phrased it, but afterwards > also list a number of optional "bells and whistles" (input/textarea > exception, dir=auto exception, the more complicated syntax). Let the > editor reject them. He enjoys doing that anyway :-) > > Ehsan, Najib: is Mati's formulation acceptable to you? Yes! This proposal seems clear to me too. I support it. No more need of ‫ and ‬ :-) > > Aharon > > On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Matitiahu Allouche <matial@il.ibm.com > <mailto:matial@il.ibm.com>> wrote: > > Thanks to Aharon for improving the phrasing of my proposal. I now > phrase it as follows: > > a. If the element has an attribsdir attribute, the value of this > attribute determines the direction of the text of each visible > attribute (for attribsdir="auto", the direction is computed > independently for each attribute). > b. If the element has no attribsdir attribute, the direction of > the text of visible attributes is the same as the value of the dir > attribute of the element or its closest ancestor having a dir > attribute (if the value is "auto", the direction is computed > independently for each visible attribute). If neither the element > nor any ancestor has a dir attribute, it is 'ltr'. > > I prefer this simpler specification even at the cost of what > Aharon calls a loss of usability. In fact, this loss of usability > is that with my spec it is necessary to specify a value for > attribsdir in cases when this would not be needed with Aharon's > specification. There is no case that can be handled with Aharon's > spec and cannot be handled with mine. > Simple wins, IMHO. > > Aharon wrote: "I presume this means that you would be against > allowing attribsdir to take a more complicated (explicit) value > like "title:ltr;placeholder:rtl", correct?" > I think that this a nice syntactic format, but since it has not > found its place in HTML until now, and since it is possible to > express the same meaning with formats already existing in HTML, I > would rather not introduce it, to say nothing on the fact that its > chances to be accepted by the WHATWG seem very slim. > > > Shalom (Regards), Mati > Bidi Architect > Globalization Center Of Competency - Bidirectional Scripts > IBM Israel > Mobile: +972 52 2554160 <tel:%2B972%2052%202554160> > > > > > From: "Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin" <aharon@google.com > <mailto:aharon@google.com>> > To: Matitiahu Allouche/Israel/IBM@IBMIL > Cc: Ehsan Akhgari <ehsan@mozilla.com > <mailto:ehsan@mozilla.com>>, Martin J. Dürst > <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp <mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>>, > public-i18n-bidi@w3.org <mailto:public-i18n-bidi@w3.org> > Date: 27/02/2012 14:09 > Subject: Re: dir=auto makes no sense for descendant > user-visible attributes > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > See below > > On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 <tel:2012> at 5:13 PM, Matitiahu Allouche > <_matial@il.ibm.com_ <mailto:matial@il.ibm.com>> wrote: > I am afraid that I have no silver bullet for this issue, and I > will go along with Aharon's proposal, but with some needed (IMHO) > simplification, because if it needs 9 examples to describe it > > The examples are not there to describe it, and I was not trying to > give as few examples as possible. I give a definition, and it's > not complicated. But let me re-phrase the definition of the > default value of attribsdir even more simply: > > - If the element is not <input> or <textarea>, and has a dir > attribute with a value other than auto, the same as its dir > attribute. > - Otherwise, if any ancestor of the element has a dir attribute > with a value other than auto, the same as the dir attribute of the > closest such ancestor > - Otherwise, 'ltr'. > > , it is too complicated for my feeble mind. > So here is what I propose. > a. If attribsdir is not specified and the element has (explicitly > or by inheritance) a dir different from auto, its dir applies to > its visible attributes (no change from current spec). > b. If attribsdir is not specified and the element has dir=auto > (explicitly or by inheritance), dir=auto also applies > independently to each of the visible attributes. > c. If attribsdir is specified, it overrides the dir of the > element. If attribsdir=auto, the direction is computed > independently for each of the visible attributes. > > I do not think that the definition can be phrased in terms of dir > inheritance because the dir attribute does not inherit. For > example, <span dir=ltr>א<span > dir=ltr>bc</span>ד</span> is *not* the same as <span > dir=ltr>א<span>bc</span>ד</span> (the first comes > out דbcא, while the second comes out אbcד). > > Thus, I would phrase the definition you are proposing (for the > attribsdir default value) as: > > - If the element has a dir attribute, the same as its dir attribute. > - Otherwise, if any ancestor of the element has a dir attribute, > the same as the dir attribute of the closest such ancestor. > - Otherwise, 'ltr'. > > Or, perhaps more simply, as: The default value of attribsdir is > the same as the value of the dir attribute of the element or its > closest ancestor having a dir attribute. If neither the element > nor any ancestor has a dir attribute, it is 'ltr'. > > There are two simplifications in this definition compared to mine: > - no exception for <input> and <textarea> > - no exception for dir=auto > > I can live with either or both of these simplifications, even > though I think that usually the results would be better without > the simplifications. However, I would prefer to let the HTML5 spec > editor be the one to make simplifications that only make the > definition simpler, not more usable. > > > Unless I am wrong (it has happened in the past), this proposal > creates no backward compatibility problem, > > Correct. > > it is easy to understand and it allows any weird combination of > different directions for element data and attributes' text to be > solved by specifying attribsdir=auto and prefixing the attribute > value by ‎ or ‏ as needed. > > True. > > I presume this means that you would be against allowing attribsdir > to take a more complicated (explicit) value like > "title:ltr;placeholder:rtl", correct? > > > Shalom (Regards), Mati > Bidi Architect > Globalization Center Of Competency - Bidirectional Scripts > IBM Israel > Mobile: _+972 52 2554160_ <tel:%2B972%2052%202554160> > > > > > From: Ehsan Akhgari <_ehsan@mozilla.com_ > <mailto:ehsan@mozilla.com>> > To: "Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin" <_aharon@google.com_ > <mailto:aharon@google.com>> > Cc: _public-i18n-bidi@w3.org_ > <mailto:public-i18n-bidi@w3.org>, Martin J. Dürst > <_duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp_ <mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>> > Date: 24/02/2012 19:30 > Subject: Re: dir=auto makes no sense for descendant > user-visible attributes > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > I'm fine with attribsdir as you proposed, although I'm not quite > sure about the more complex syntax, since it's so different to the > way other attributes in HTML work. > > Let's hear what others think. > > Cheers, > -- > Ehsan > <_http://ehsanakhgari.org/_> > > > On Thu, Feb 23, _2012_ <tel:2012> at 11:53 PM, Aharon (Vladimir) > Lanin <_aharon@google.com_ <mailto:aharon@google.com>> wrote: > Good example. > > In the past, Ian has already rejected titledir etc. > > Perhaps they will be more receptive to attribsdir, since it's just > one attribute and tackles some serious problems. > > Your example could be handled by also allowing syntax like > "title:rtl;placeholder:ltr". Even just " placeholder:ltr" could do > if the other attributes then follow the default (which in this > case would presumably be rtl despite dir=ltr on the <input>). > Since it does not inherit, there would not be too much difficulty > supporting the complex syntax. > > But attribsdir would still be useful even if it only allowed a > simple value. > > Aharon > > On Feb 23, _2012_ <tel:2012> 6:11 PM, "Ehsan Akhgari" > <_ehsan@mozilla.com_ <mailto:ehsan@mozilla.com>> wrote: > How about something like: > > <input name="phone" title="TELEPHONE" placeholder="(123) 456-7890"> > > If we introduce an attribsdir attribute, I can see people asking > to differentiate between different attributes, such as the example > above. From a bidi perspective, the ultimate solution is to have > a directional attribute for every user visible attribute, such as > titledir, placeholderdir, etc. But honestly I don't expect such a > proposal to be easily accepted in WHATWG, given the recent > resistance towards placeholderdir. > > -- > Ehsan > <_http://ehsanakhgari.org/_> > > > On Thu, Feb 23, _2012_ <tel:2012> at 6:49 AM, Aharon (Vladimir) > Lanin <_aharon@google.com_ <mailto:aharon@google.com>> wrote: > Well, I, for one, am not so happy with my proposal :-). > > Its solution is to apply dir=auto to the individual user-visible > attributes, even though in most cases the values of such > attributes are not dynamic, but localized to the page locale, e.g. > (in an English page) <input dir="auto" name="purpose" > placeholder="The purpose of your visit.">. Using estimation for > them is not just wasteful, but bound to reach the wrong conclusion > occasionally. > > And it does not address the long-standing issue of no way to set > the directionality of an attribute (other than using formatting > characters). The canonical examples are: > > - <input dir="ltr" name="telephone" title="PHONE NUMBER.">, which > has to be worked around as <span title="PHONE NUMBER."><input > dir="ltr" name="telephone"></span> > - <input dir="ltr" name="telephone" placeholder="PHONE NUMBER.">, > which has no workaround other than RLE + PDF. > > What if we could instead have a new attribute, > attribsdir="ltr|rtl|auto", which would determine the > directionality in which the element's user-visible attributes must > be displayed. A very important part of this would be the default > value. IMO, it would be best if it could default to the dir > attribute value of the closest ancestor - or the element itself > unless it is <input> or <textarea> - that has an explicit dir > attribute with a value other than "auto". If there is no such > ancestor, the default is "ltr". Thus: > > - the only way to get attribsdir=auto is to specify it explicitly > - the explicit dir attribute value of <input> and <textarea>, > which is presumably meant to correspond to the directionality of > their content, not their user-visible attributes, does not affect > their default attribsdir. > - with the exceptions of <input dir="...">, <textarea dir="...">, > and <whatever dir=auto>, the result is backward-compatible. > > Examples: > > 1. <html><body><div title="?">: ltr > > 2. <html dir=rtl><body><div title="?">: rtl > > 3. <html><body><div dir=rtl title="?">: rtl > > 4. <html><body><div><div dir=rtl><div><div title="?">: rtl > > 5. <html dir=rtl><body><div><input dir=ltr title="?"> : rtl > > 6. <html><body><div dir=rtl><div dir="auto" title="?">hello</div>: > rtl > > 7. <html><body><div dir=rtl><div dir="auto">ltr > content<div title="?">: rtl > > 8. <html dir=rtl><body><div title="?" attribsdir="ltr">: ltr > > 9. <html dir=rtl><body><div title="?" attribsdir="auto">: auto > > Even if we couldn't get the <input> and <textarea> exception, we > would still be ok - the page would just have to > specify attribsdir explicitly on the problematic inputs. > > Aharon > > On Thu, Feb 23, _2012_ <tel:2012> at 11:32 AM, "Martin J. Dürst" > <_duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp_ <mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>> wrote: > On 2012/02/23 1:11, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: > On Wed, Feb 22, _2012_ <tel:2012> at 10:04 AM, Aharon (Vladimir) > Lanin<_aharon@google.com_ <mailto:aharon@google.com> > wrote: > > One possibility is to divorce user-visible attributes from their > elements' > directionality completely, always estimating the directionality of > each > attribute by its content. This suffers from backwards compatibility > problems (since estimation is a heuristic that sometimes gives the > wrong > answer). > > A better possibility is to divorce it only for elements under the > influence of dir=auto. Thus, if an element has dir=auto (explicitly or > implicitly, the latter being the case for<bdi>), each of the > attributes in > the subrtree rooted at that element, with the exception of elements > specifying dir="ltr" or dir="rtl" and their descendants, must be > displayed > to the user as if they had a dir=auto of heir own. > > > I like the second proposal better. Although I have to say that it > has been > worded a bit vaguely. What I have in mind is for the title > attribute in > the following example to have a resolved RTL direction: > > <p dir="auto" title="RTL TEXT followed by ltr text">ltr text > FOLLOWED BY > RTL TEXT</p> > > I agree with Ehsan that the second proposal is better. It's > something that comes quite naturally once one gets used to it. > > Regards, Martin. > > > -- Najib TOUNSI (tounsi at w3.org) W3C Office in Morocco (http://www.w3c.org.ma/) Ecole Mohammadia d'Ingénieurs, BP. 765 Agdal-RABAT Morocco Mobile: +212 (0) 661 22 00 30
Received on Tuesday, 28 February 2012 08:59:23 UTC