- From: Ehsan Akhgari <ehsan@mozilla.com>
- Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:32:43 -0500
- To: "Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin" <aharon@google.com>
- Cc: Matitiahu Allouche <matial@il.ibm.com>, Martin J. Dürst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>, public-i18n-bidi@w3.org
- Message-ID: <CANTur_7ZcUhk2sDRtAh940kfx0Kbid+H-V+KNxhzTRN=LH+wvw@mail.gmail.com>
The upside of this proposal is its simplicity, and its resemblance to the existing HTML5 "spirit". The downside is that someday someone would ask around to see what they can do for the case where dir="auto" would get the direction of either the alt or title attribute specified on an element wrong. I've though about this some more, and I think I can agree that the downside's work-around (using the Unicode formatting characters) can be "good enough". So, in short, yes, I think I can support this proposal in clear conscious. :-) -- Ehsan <http://ehsanakhgari.org/> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin <aharon@google.com > wrote: > Ok, so how about we propose it as you have phrased it, but afterwards also > list a number of optional "bells and whistles" (input/textarea exception, > dir=auto exception, the more complicated syntax). Let the editor reject > them. He enjoys doing that anyway :-) > > Ehsan, Najib: is Mati's formulation acceptable to you? > > Aharon > > > On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Matitiahu Allouche <matial@il.ibm.com>wrote: > >> Thanks to Aharon for improving the phrasing of my proposal. I now phrase >> it as follows: >> >> a. If the element has an attribsdir attribute, the value of this >> attribute determines the direction of the text of each visible attribute >> (for attribsdir="auto", the direction is computed independently for each >> attribute). >> b. If the element has no attribsdir attribute, the direction of the text >> of visible attributes is the same as the value of the dir attribute of the >> element or its closest ancestor having a dir attribute (if the value is >> "auto", the direction is computed independently for each visible attribute).If neither the element nor any ancestor has a dir attribute, it is 'ltr'. >> >> I prefer this simpler specification even at the cost of what Aharon calls >> a loss of usability. In fact, this loss of usability is that with my spec >> it is necessary to specify a value for attribsdir in cases when this would >> not be needed with Aharon's specification. There is no case that can be >> handled with Aharon's spec and cannot be handled with mine. >> Simple wins, IMHO. >> >> Aharon wrote: "I presume this means that you would be against allowing >> attribsdir to take a more complicated (explicit) value like >> "title:ltr;placeholder:rtl", correct?" >> I think that this a nice syntactic format, but since it has not found its >> place in HTML until now, and since it is possible to express the same >> meaning with formats already existing in HTML, I would rather not introduce >> it, to say nothing on the fact that its chances to be accepted by the >> WHATWG seem very slim. >> >> >> Shalom (Regards), Mati >> Bidi Architect >> Globalization Center Of Competency - Bidirectional Scripts >> IBM Israel >> Mobile: +972 52 2554160 >> >> >> >> >> From: "Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin" <aharon@google.com> >> To: Matitiahu Allouche/Israel/IBM@IBMIL >> Cc: Ehsan Akhgari <ehsan@mozilla.com>, Martin J. Dürst < >> duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>, public-i18n-bidi@w3.org >> Date: 27/02/2012 14:09 >> Subject: Re: dir=auto makes no sense for descendant user-visible >> attributes >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> See below >> >> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Matitiahu Allouche <*matial@il.ibm.com*<matial@il.ibm.com>> >> wrote: >> I am afraid that I have no silver bullet for this issue, and I will go >> along with Aharon's proposal, but with some needed (IMHO) simplification, >> because if it needs 9 examples to describe it >> >> The examples are not there to describe it, and I was not trying to give >> as few examples as possible. I give a definition, and it's not complicated. >> But let me re-phrase the definition of the default value of attribsdir even >> more simply: >> >> - If the element is not <input> or <textarea>, and has a dir attribute >> with a value other than auto, the same as its dir attribute. >> - Otherwise, if any ancestor of the element has a dir attribute with a >> value other than auto, the same as the dir attribute of the closest such >> ancestor >> - Otherwise, 'ltr'. >> >> , it is too complicated for my feeble mind. >> So here is what I propose. >> a. If attribsdir is not specified and the element has (explicitly or by >> inheritance) a dir different from auto, its dir applies to its visible >> attributes (no change from current spec). >> b. If attribsdir is not specified and the element has dir=auto >> (explicitly or by inheritance), dir=auto also applies independently to each >> of the visible attributes. >> c. If attribsdir is specified, it overrides the dir of the element. If >> attribsdir=auto, the direction is computed independently for each of the >> visible attributes. >> >> I do not think that the definition can be phrased in terms of dir >> inheritance because the dir attribute does not inherit. For example, <span >> dir=ltr>א<span dir=ltr>bc</span>ד</span> is *not* the same >> as <span dir=ltr>א<span>bc</span>ד</span> (the first comes >> out דbcא, while the second comes out אbcד). >> >> Thus, I would phrase the definition you are proposing (for the attribsdir >> default value) as: >> >> - If the element has a dir attribute, the same as its dir attribute. >> - Otherwise, if any ancestor of the element has a dir attribute, the same >> as the dir attribute of the closest such ancestor. >> - Otherwise, 'ltr'. >> >> Or, perhaps more simply, as: The default value of attribsdir is the same >> as the value of the dir attribute of the element or its closest ancestor >> having a dir attribute. If neither the element nor any ancestor has a dir >> attribute, it is 'ltr'. >> >> There are two simplifications in this definition compared to mine: >> - no exception for <input> and <textarea> >> - no exception for dir=auto >> >> I can live with either or both of these simplifications, even though I >> think that usually the results would be better without the simplifications. >> However, I would prefer to let the HTML5 spec editor be the one to make >> simplifications that only make the definition simpler, not more usable. >> >> >> Unless I am wrong (it has happened in the past), this proposal creates no >> backward compatibility problem, >> >> Correct. >> >> it is easy to understand and it allows any weird combination of different >> directions for element data and attributes' text to be solved by specifying >> attribsdir=auto and prefixing the attribute value by ‎ or ‏ as >> needed. >> >> True. >> >> I presume this means that you would be against allowing attribsdir to >> take a more complicated (explicit) value like "title:ltr;placeholder:rtl", >> correct? >> >> >> Shalom (Regards), Mati >> Bidi Architect >> Globalization Center Of Competency - Bidirectional Scripts >> IBM Israel >> Mobile: *+972 52 2554160* <%2B972%2052%202554160> >> >> >> >> >> From: Ehsan Akhgari <*ehsan@mozilla.com* <ehsan@mozilla.com>> >> To: "Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin" <*aharon@google.com*<aharon@google.com> >> > >> Cc: *public-i18n-bidi@w3.org* <public-i18n-bidi@w3.org>, Martin >> J. Dürst <*duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp* <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>> >> Date: 24/02/2012 19:30 >> Subject: Re: dir=auto makes no sense for descendant user-visible >> attributes >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> I'm fine with attribsdir as you proposed, although I'm not quite sure >> about the more complex syntax, since it's so different to the way other >> attributes in HTML work. >> >> Let's hear what others think. >> >> Cheers, >> -- >> Ehsan >> <*http://ehsanakhgari.org/* <http://ehsanakhgari.org/>> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 23, *2012* <2012> at 11:53 PM, Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin <* >> aharon@google.com* <aharon@google.com>> wrote: >> Good example. >> >> In the past, Ian has already rejected titledir etc. >> >> Perhaps they will be more receptive to attribsdir, since it's just one >> attribute and tackles some serious problems. >> >> Your example could be handled by also allowing syntax like >> "title:rtl;placeholder:ltr". Even just " placeholder:ltr" could do if the >> other attributes then follow the default (which in this case would >> presumably be rtl despite dir=ltr on the <input>). Since it does not >> inherit, there would not be too much difficulty supporting the complex >> syntax. >> >> But attribsdir would still be useful even if it only allowed a simple >> value. >> >> Aharon >> >> On Feb 23, *2012* <2012> 6:11 PM, "Ehsan Akhgari" <*ehsan@mozilla.com*<ehsan@mozilla.com>> >> wrote: >> How about something like: >> >> <input name="phone" title="TELEPHONE" placeholder="(123) 456-7890"> >> >> If we introduce an attribsdir attribute, I can see people asking to >> differentiate between different attributes, such as the example above. >> From a bidi perspective, the ultimate solution is to have a directional >> attribute for every user visible attribute, such as titledir, >> placeholderdir, etc. But honestly I don't expect such a proposal to be >> easily accepted in WHATWG, given the recent resistance towards >> placeholderdir. >> >> -- >> Ehsan >> <*http://ehsanakhgari.org/* <http://ehsanakhgari.org/>> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 23, *2012* <2012> at 6:49 AM, Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin <* >> aharon@google.com* <aharon@google.com>> wrote: >> Well, I, for one, am not so happy with my proposal :-). >> >> Its solution is to apply dir=auto to the individual user-visible >> attributes, even though in most cases the values of such attributes are not >> dynamic, but localized to the page locale, e.g. (in an English page) <input >> dir="auto" name="purpose" placeholder="The purpose of your visit.">. Using >> estimation for them is not just wasteful, but bound to reach the wrong >> conclusion occasionally. >> >> And it does not address the long-standing issue of no way to set the >> directionality of an attribute (other than using formatting >> characters). The canonical examples are: >> >> - <input dir="ltr" name="telephone" title="PHONE NUMBER.">, which has to >> be worked around as <span title="PHONE NUMBER."><input dir="ltr" >> name="telephone"></span> >> - <input dir="ltr" name="telephone" placeholder="PHONE NUMBER.">, which >> has no workaround other than RLE + PDF. >> >> What if we could instead have a new attribute, attribsdir="ltr|rtl|auto", >> which would determine the directionality in which the element's >> user-visible attributes must be displayed. A very important part of this >> would be the default value. IMO, it would be best if it could default to >> the dir attribute value of the closest ancestor - or the element itself >> unless it is <input> or <textarea> - that has an explicit dir attribute >> with a value other than "auto". If there is no such ancestor, the default >> is "ltr". Thus: >> >> - the only way to get attribsdir=auto is to specify it explicitly >> - the explicit dir attribute value of <input> and <textarea>, which is >> presumably meant to correspond to the directionality of their content, not >> their user-visible attributes, does not affect their default attribsdir. >> - with the exceptions of <input dir="...">, <textarea dir="...">, and >> <whatever dir=auto>, the result is backward-compatible. >> >> Examples: >> >> 1. <html><body><div title="?">: ltr >> >> 2. <html dir=rtl><body><div title="?">: rtl >> >> 3. <html><body><div dir=rtl title="?">: rtl >> >> 4. <html><body><div><div dir=rtl><div><div title="?">: rtl >> >> 5. <html dir=rtl><body><div><input dir=ltr title="?"> : rtl >> >> 6. <html><body><div dir=rtl><div dir="auto" title="?">hello</div>: rtl >> >> 7. <html><body><div dir=rtl><div dir="auto">ltr content<div title="?">: >> rtl >> >> 8. <html dir=rtl><body><div title="?" attribsdir="ltr">: ltr >> >> 9. <html dir=rtl><body><div title="?" attribsdir="auto">: auto >> >> Even if we couldn't get the <input> and <textarea> exception, we would >> still be ok - the page would just have to specify attribsdir explicitly on >> the problematic inputs. >> >> Aharon >> >> On Thu, Feb 23, *2012* <2012> at 11:32 AM, "Martin J. Dürst" <* >> duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp* <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>> wrote: >> On 2012/02/23 1:11, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: >> On Wed, Feb 22, *2012* <2012> at 10:04 AM, Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin<* >> aharon@google.com* <aharon@google.com> >> wrote: >> >> One possibility is to divorce user-visible attributes from their elements' >> directionality completely, always estimating the directionality of each >> attribute by its content. This suffers from backwards compatibility >> problems (since estimation is a heuristic that sometimes gives the wrong >> answer). >> >> A better possibility is to divorce it only for elements under the >> influence of dir=auto. Thus, if an element has dir=auto (explicitly or >> implicitly, the latter being the case for<bdi>), each of the attributes in >> the subrtree rooted at that element, with the exception of elements >> specifying dir="ltr" or dir="rtl" and their descendants, must be displayed >> to the user as if they had a dir=auto of heir own. >> >> >> I like the second proposal better. Although I have to say that it has >> been >> worded a bit vaguely. What I have in mind is for the title attribute in >> the following example to have a resolved RTL direction: >> >> <p dir="auto" title="RTL TEXT followed by ltr text">ltr text FOLLOWED BY >> RTL TEXT</p> >> >> I agree with Ehsan that the second proposal is better. It's something >> that comes quite naturally once one gets used to it. >> >> Regards, Martin. >> >> >> >
Received on Tuesday, 28 February 2012 04:34:08 UTC