- From: Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin <aharon@google.com>
- Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:33:42 +0200
- To: "KangHao Lu (Kenny)" <kennyluck@w3.org>
- Cc: Bidi Discussion <public-i18n-bidi@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <AANLkTikG7r4G0_SZA0Af=tDdKTG7AT4YLzKVhimoy+k4@mail.gmail.com>
> I created a test page for this -> > http://www.w3.org/People/kennyluck/Test/bidi-scrollbar That's great! Thank you! > Side question, should the "vertical scrollbar on the left" > behavior depends on 'direction' or 'text-align' (re. the last > example of my test page)? I think it makes sense if this > behavior relates to 'text-align' but not 'direction', but this > is not implemented in IE. I doubt there ever exists any > LTR site with 'text-align:right' and overflowed content, > so changing this probably won't break too many things. It should not have any connection to alignment, only to direction. Direction says which side is the start and which side is the end. Scrollbars belong on the end. Alignment normally belongs on the start. If someone changes the alignment, it should not have any effect on scrollbar position. > Is the following expected behavior correct based on > "Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML" and the > clarification in [2]? > > page overall: R Yes, assuming that's where the browser puts it for LTR pages. A browser with an RTL UI could well always make it L. The point is that it should not be dependent on the page's direction. > <textarea>: L Yes. > <div>: L Yes. > RTL in <iframe>: L Yes. > LTR in <iframe>: R Yes. > <textarea dir="ltr" style="text-aligh:right;">: (undefined) It should always be R. It depends only on direction, not on alignment. > IE9 > page overall: L > <textarea>: L > <div>: L > RTL in <iframe>: L > LTR in <iframe>: R > <textarea dir="ltr" style="text-aligh:right;">: R This is the same as IE7 and IE8. The only one that's not as we want it is page overall. I have not been able to get into fruitful contact with anyone on IE, so given that 3.11 is not (and will not be) in either the HTML or the CSS spec, I have no great hopes for this being changed anytime soon. > FF4b7 > page overall: R > <textarea>: L > <div>: L > RTL in <iframe>: R > LTR in <iframe>: R > <textarea dir="ltr" style="text-aligh:right;">: R > > So a large part of 3.12 in "Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML" > is solved by the patch for Bug556363 of Gecko.[1] That's great! Only the RTL in <iframe> case is wrong. Good catch! > > 3.12 The vertical scrollbar of an element below <body> > > should be on the "end" side relative to the element's direction > > Bug 454420 filed on Mozilla and still active > If I understand it correctly Bug 454420 [3] is mainly for > 3.11 You are right. I have updated the document to refer to 556363 instead. Thanks! > and I don't think that bug issue addresses much of the > <iframe> part of 3.12. Please reopen 556363 for that, or (probably better) file a bug and add a comment to 556363 linking to it. Please update me so I can update the document. > Although "scroll" is defined in CSS in a general sense, > "scrollbar" is probably not. I think it makes certain > sense to have in css3-ui something like > 'scrollbar-position' where the default value is an 'auto' > which matches what's described in > "Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML" . > css3-ui has "The appearance, styling and coloring of > scrollbars" in its list of potential new feature in future > version so it looks like a good place to go. Of course > devices in which there's no concept of "scrollbar" > would just ignore the value of 'scrollbar-position'. I agree with you that CSS should relate to scrollbars, since most implementations do use them. However, several experts have stated flatly that it is beyond the scope of CSS, and I am not very inclined to argue with them. That css3-ui says "perhaps future versions may attempt to solve" a list of issues that includes scrollbar properties I take to mean that it definitely will not happen in CSS3 - although someone could *attempt* to do it *after* CSS3. Aharon On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 4:13 AM, KangHao Lu (Kenny) <kennyluck@w3.org>wrote: > Some followups on this vertical scroll bar issue. > > I created a test page for this -> > http://www.w3.org/People/kennyluck/Test/bidi-scrollbar > > Tested under FF4b7, FF3.6 and IE9Platform on Windows all zh-tw(LTR) > localized version. L indicates vertical scroll on the left side. R is > similar. > > FF3.6 > page overall: R > <textarea>: R > <div>: R > RTL in <iframe>: R > LTR in <iframe>: R > <textarea dir="ltr" style="text-aligh:right;">: R > > FF4b7 > page overall: R > <textarea>: L > <div>: L > RTL in <iframe>: R > LTR in <iframe>: R > <textarea dir="ltr" style="text-aligh:right;">: R > > So a large part of 3.12 in "Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML" is > solved by the patch for Bug556363 of Gecko.[1] > > IE9 > page overall: L > <textarea>: L > <div>: L > RTL in <iframe>: L > LTR in <iframe>: R > <textarea dir="ltr" style="text-aligh:right;">: R > > Is the following expected behavior correct based on "Additional > Requirements for Bidi in HTML" and the clarification in [2]? > > expected behavior > page overall: R > <textarea>: L > <div>: L > RTL in <iframe>: L > LTR in <iframe>: R > <textarea dir="ltr" style="text-aligh:right;">: (undefined) > > > 3.12 The vertical scrollbar of an element below <body> should be on the > "end" side relative to the element's direction > > Bug 454420 filed on Mozilla and still active > > > If I understand it correctly Bug 454420 [3] is mainly for 3.11 and I don't > think that bug issue addresses much of the <iframe> part of 3.12. > > > [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=556363 > [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-bidi/2010AprJun/0028 > [3] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=454420 > > > It seems to me that since scrollbar position is legitimately out of scope > for both CSS and HTML, we need to cover it in a new W3C document of > "recommendations" for user agent implementors. > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Ehsan Akhgari <ehsan@mozilla.com> wrote: > >> I'm not positive that this would get accepted into the CSS spec. There >> are user agents today which do not use scrollbars as scrolling mechanisms, >> so I honestly am rethinking whether this makes sense as a CSS proposal at >> all... >> > > Although "scroll" is defined in CSS in a general sense, "scrollbar" is > probably not. I think it makes certain sense to have in css3-ui something > like 'scrollbar-position' where the default value is an 'auto' which matches > what's described in "Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML" . > > css3-ui lists "The appearance, styling and coloring of scrollbars" as > potential new feature in future version[4] so it looks like a good place to > go. Of course devices in which there's no concept of "scrollbar" would just > ignore the value of 'scrollbar-position'. > > [4] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui#scope > > > > Side question, should the "vertical scrollbar on the left" behavior depends > on 'direction' or 'text-align' (re. the last example of my test page)? I > think it makes sense if this behavior relates to 'text-align' but not > 'direction', but this is not implemented in IE. I doubt there ever exists > any LTR site with 'text-align:right' and overflowed content, so changing > this probably won't break too many things. > > > Cheers, > Kenny >
Received on Friday, 17 December 2010 08:34:35 UTC