- From: <ishida@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:27:56 +0100
- To: public-i18n-arabic@w3.org
http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html
text version follows:
Arabic Layout telecon
20 Oct 2015
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-irc
Attendees
Present
Shervin, mostafa, Behnam, r12a, Najib, Azzeddine_on_IRC
Regrets
Waseem
Chair
Behnam
Scribe
Shervin, Behnam
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]Status review of action items from previous meeting
2. [5]Recruiting Status
3. [6]Status report on glossary work
4. [7]Planning for start of drafting
* [8]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
Status review of action items from previous meeting
<r12a> ACTION: Behnam to file github issues for special cases,
like Quran [recorded in
[9]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action02]
<r12a> ACTION: Behnam to follow-up with Martin about a
Lightning Talk at the IUC [recorded in
[10]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action03]
<r12a> ACTION: Behnam to prepare slides for the talk and share
with the TF [recorded in
[11]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action04]
Behnam: Is working on the slides for the IUC presentation.
... Next agenda item is about typesetting software.
<r12a> ACTION: Everybody to gather information about
Arabic-specific Typesetting software [recorded in
[12]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action05]
<r12a> ACTION: Richard to figure out how to maintain action
items [recorded in
[13]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action06]
<r12a> closed
<r12a> ACTION: Behnam to file an issue re Math and whether to
exclude that in the first version [ONGOING] [recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action07]
Behnam: is still working on action item related to math.
<r12a> ACTION: Behnam to research the existing experts for
other languages like Urdu [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action08]
Behnam: Will keep the action item open regarding other
languages experts (e.g. Urdu).
<r12a> ACTION: r12a to check regarding processing of the
minutes and get back to the group [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action09]
r12a: Will publish the minute.
<r12a> ACTION: Shervin to put together a preliminary list of
existing literature [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action10]
Shervin: On the email sent to the ML, there's a Dropbox link to
see the files
<Shervin>
[18]https://www.dropbox.com/s/u7kn9sy9tuve0s9/ALReq_Refs_List.m
d?dl=0
[18] https://www.dropbox.com/s/u7kn9sy9tuve0s9/ALReq_Refs_List.md?dl=0
Shervin: Not all the items will be referenced first-hand
... and some are more valuable than others
<Shervin>
[19]https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jt161nncj3c6xez/AABCFWUdKCGZTW9g
XS9tYSpVa?dl=0
[19]
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jt161nncj3c6xez/AABCFWUdKCGZTW9gXS9tYSpVa?dl=0
Shervin: We need someone with knowledge of Arabic to help
understanding some of these documents
... some taken from the website of standard organization of
Saudi Arabia
<r12a> [20]http://w3c.github.io/typography/#justification
[20] http://w3c.github.io/typography/#justification
1+
<r12a> [21]http://www.tug.org/tugboat/tb27-2/tb87benatia.pdf
[21] http://www.tug.org/tugboat/tb27-2/tb87benatia.pdf
r12a: Topics provided in the email.
<r12a>
[22]http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jep/3336451.0013.105/--justify-
just-or-just-justify?rgn=main;view=fulltext
[22]
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jep/3336451.0013.105/--justify-just-or-just-justify?rgn=main;view=fulltext
<r12a>
[23]http://www.cle.org.pk/Publication/papers/2004/rule-based-ex
pert-system.pdf
[23]
http://www.cle.org.pk/Publication/papers/2004/rule-based-expert-system.pdf
<Behnam> Shervin: Anyone with a Dropbox account can ask for
write permission to add documents directly, or, if not, send
Shervin change requests over email
<r12a> [24]http://rishida.net/blog/?p=1059
[24] http://rishida.net/blog/?p=1059
Shervin: Going to put in the topics that Richard sent over
r12a: Some of them might not want to go into the list.
<r12a> the last url just give ideas to consider for alreq,
rather than being a reference doc
Recruiting Status
Mostafa: No update from contacts.
Shervin: Welcoming, Azzeddine.
... Question for Mostafa regarding Salar's participation.
Behnam: Is Salar on the mailing list?
r12a: He's on the list.
... Sent some information to the University in Oman. Copied
people who are going to go there for a meeting re Unicode.
... Craig Cummings showed interest and he will follow the
conversation on mailing list.
Najib: Still looking for right people who are aware of Arabic
publishing including Quran.
... People contacted don't know what's expected from them.
... May want to contact them regularly as we advance in the
document.
<azzeddine> azzeddine
<azzeddine> hello all, my apologies
<Behnam> Shervin: As a follow up to Najib's comment: we can
point people to the keywords list and document structure, as
well as other Layout Requirement documents published
Shervin: Re: Recruiting. Would be good to share JLReq and list
of keywords with people who might be interested.
Status report on glossary work
Shervin: Have the spreadsheet. Shared with people who showed
interest. Mostafa added some terms. How people feel about
starting the translation?
mostafa: Suggests to look in the existing literature. Find the
words used.
... If there's one, we're good. If there is more we can decide
about it later.
... this would reduce the amount of work.
+1
Najib: Didn't start conributing yet. Have a set of terms to
add. Some already added.
... Not sure how to fill the glossary with translation.
Najib: We can have many terms which means the same concept.
... This is the question for the group.
<Behnam> Shervin: As mostafa mentioned, there can exist
duplicate terms
<Behnam> ... the requirement document will be in English, and
we can have all the different terms used in other languages
Mostafa: Another aspect of what Najib mentioned; different
terms in English for same concept.
<Behnam> ... and the second thing is that we don't need limit
the glossary to one translation per term
Mostafa: We can use one of them. Others can just appear or be
linked to original.
<Behnam> +1
<Behnam> Shervin: Question for mostafa and Najib: do you have
access to the google-docs document?
<Behnam> ... (both confirm) Feel free to work on the document
there and I will chip in myself
<Behnam> This is the document:
[25]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nSxYKQm_mKroCmxU4fy
J-g70Eo1_mF89yHZg8YNOuzc/edit#gid=0
[25]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nSxYKQm_mKroCmxU4fyJ-g70Eo1_mF89yHZg8YNOuzc/edit#gid=0
<Behnam> Shervin: Added columns for Persian and Arabic
translations
<Behnam> Shervin: Let's start with priorities 1 and 2, for now
Mostafa: Sources should be document. We need to have them
documented in a spreadsheet.
Behnam: How is different than current state of the doc?
Mostafa: There is no bibliography. e.g. "Soltani" is not
specified.
<Behnam> Shervin: I'm going to add a unique identifier to all
the items in our references list
<mostafa> +1
<Behnam> ... for now, if you see something in the glossary
that's not clear, you can add a new tab to the spreadsheet and
keep them there temporarily
Behnam: Other discussion about glossary work.
Mostafa: Actions needed to be defined?
<Behnam> ACTION: Shervin to add unique ids to the references
list [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action11]
<Behnam> ACTION: Shervin to process links proposed by Richard
[recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action12]
<Behnam> ACTION: Mostafa and Najib to populate translations in
the Glossary [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action13]
<Behnam> Shervin: We already covered the topic and got the
actions, which I'll follow up on
<r12a> ACTION: Shervin to add list of references to spreadsheet
and assign unique identifiers [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action14]
Planning for start of drafting
<Behnam> Shervin: Najib, in an email, mentioned the use/misuse
of typefaces/fonts
<Behnam> ... this is a good example of what we can cover
<Behnam> ... in section "Font and Typography Considerations"
<Behnam> ... and there are other writing styles to also
consider, like Nasta'liq
Najib: Will propose some text for this section. Will email the
content.
<r12a> for reference, here's a similar section in clreq
[30]http://w3c.github.io/clreq/#commonly_used_chinese_typefaces
[30] http://w3c.github.io/clreq/#commonly_used_chinese_typefaces
r12a: One thought is to avoid the style-guide pitfall. There is
a similar section in CLReq. We should be careful not to write
recommendations.
Shervin: Readability issue of font styles something to put in
the document?
r12a: Can be. Styling and justifications, etc. of fonts are
different. Styling of Nastaliq is very different.
Behnam: Wanted to note that although we don't want to
recommend, for the sake of describing the problem, we need to
get to the description and classes of styles.
r12a: The behaviour varies from font style to font style. We
rather document rather than providing recommendations.
<r12a> another example: fonts in the Ruqah style never use
elongation at all (see [31]http://rishida.net/blog/?p=1059)
[31] http://rishida.net/blog/?p=1059)
<r12a> +1 to Shervin's comment
<Najib> +1 too
Shervin: Document the usages without favoring one over the
other.
Najib: The intention was to describe styles. And what not to do
with styles. Some remarks to make people aware of how to use
them.
... Not to recommend or put rules.
r12a: Sounds good to me.
Behnam: Any other section of the document we want to talk
about?
r12a: I've been hearing this for a long time; for Persian if
Nastaliq is not used then Tahoma is a good font.
Behnam: Lacking other fonts, Tahoma is a font to use.
Specifically for publications, it's prefered to use other
fonts.
<Najib> +1 to Behnam about Tahoma
Mostafa: Agrees with Behnam. Tahoma rarely appears in print.
More options are available these days and other options are
used.
... aesthetically it doesn't have much appeal to Iranians.
<Behnam> Shervin: Mostafa likes to start working on the
Characters section
<Behnam> ... and Najib is willing to start the Styles and Fonts
section
Mostafa: Glossary is not going to be done in a week and it's an
ongoing task.
<scribe> ACTION: Mostafa to start the section on Characters and
provide some draft for everyone's feedback and contribution.
[recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action15]
<scribe> ACTION: Najib to produce some text for the section
"Fonts and Typographical Considerations" based on discussions
on the mailing list and IRC. [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action16]
<r12a> i'm finding some interesting pages that might inspire
Najib: [34]http://islamicart.com/main/calligraphy/styles/,
[35]http://www.shutterstock.com/blog/2013/07/a-brief-guide-to-a
rabic-scripts-and-calligraphy/
[34] http://islamicart.com/main/calligraphy/styles/,
[35]
http://www.shutterstock.com/blog/2013/07/a-brief-guide-to-arabic-scripts-and-calligraphy/
<Najib> Thank Richard
<Behnam> azzeddine, since we don't have you on the phone, is
there anything you like to share with us here?
<Najib> Gonna look at it.
<azzeddine> no, i follow you
Behnam: I can also work with drafting of Characters sections.
<Najib> @ Richard. Links looks inspiring
Mostafa: Will communicate regarding drafting.
r12a: One thing that comes to mind; there was discussions on
CSS regarding default styles and fallback styles.
... which fonts one expects to see for serif, sans-serif, etc.
... These questions might be relevant to Arabic as well./
... Without saying "In CSS you should do this..."
Behnam: Agrees. Topic of classifying writing styles.
... Default writing styles for different languages might be
different.
Shervin: Not enough study and literature about the topic of
mapping the styles to serif, sans-, etc.
Najib: We can separate the problem of Arabic style in general
and Arabic mixed with others.
... That's why I'm not mentioning CSS firsthand.\
Mostafa: Shervin mentioned Naskh as bookish type. There's not
much certainty about these.
... As we don't want to come across as a style guide. We don't
have to make statement that there's not enough info.
r12a: We can describe general tendency as background
information.
Mostafa: The amount of content that we go into details not
clear to us just yet.
Behnam: Agrees. There is the lack of enough study on these
topics. If we look deeper we might be able to do something that
benefits from the existing studies...
... For the case of CSS (serif, sans-, monospace), because they
were there in the beginning of desktop pub
... The reason for having these classes was different use-cases
in the western world.
... They had connotations in design.
... That's why something like computer source code is present
in monospace.
... The root cause of having these definition is the use cases.
... For Arabic we have Nastaliq for fancy documents (like a
graduation certificate)
<azzeddine> I can't give any opinion Now about these topics.
However, when we propose a text, I'll study it with a confirmed
arabic calligraph
Behnam: Handwriting style used for some friendly note
... These use cases are not documented.
... I don't see a big problem in documenting on what we know
and agree on.
<mostafa> +1
<Behnam> Shervin: I see your point, but I think there's not
enough consensus about the style usage
<Behnam> ... specially when it gets to different
languages/regions
<Behnam> ... we can show people some usages of styles
<Behnam> ... but we cannot recommend any style explicitly
<Behnam> ... because, for example, a handwriting font may not
look good enough
<Behnam> +1
Behnam: We can agree on what's formal or official.
Behnam: We can agree with a good probability that an official
certificate would be in Nastaliq or a variation.
... It's a thin line between recommending and this is the
common practice.
... It's a slightly different case from Latin script when it
comes to use-cases.
... The practices are different between languages.
... We can agree that we want to document the styles.
... After that the use-cases can be talked about based on
region and language.
... We can find resources regarding that.
<Zakim> Najib, you wanted to comment on AOB
<r12a> we can say "Nastaliq tends to be used for ..."
Najib: Question on Unicode conference remote participation?
Behnam: I guess not. If people are interested in some talks,
then we can setup some video conferencing.
... We can set up a video conf for the lightening talk.
<Behnam> [36]https://github.com/w3c/alreq
[36] https://github.com/w3c/alreq
<r12a> ACTION: Richard to ensure that people are notified about
github issues [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action17]
Najib: Question about getting notification when someone files a
Github issue.
Behnam: You need to watch the repository.
... Any other topics before we close the call?
<Behnam> Thanks everyone!
<mostafa> Thank you.
<mostafa> Bye.
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Behnam to file github issues for special cases,
like Quran [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Behnam to follow-up with Martin about a Lightning
Talk at the IUC [recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Behnam to prepare slides for the talk and share
with the TF [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Behnam to research the existing experts for other
languages like Urdu [recorded in
[41]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: Everybody to gather information about
Arabic-specific Typesetting software [recorded in
[42]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Mostafa and Najib to populate translations in the
Glossary [recorded in
[43]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: Mostafa to start the section on Characters and
provide some draft for everyone's feedback and contribution.
[recorded in
[44]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action15]
[NEW] ACTION: Najib to produce some text for the section "Fonts
and Typographical Considerations" based on discussions on the
mailing list and IRC. [recorded in
[45]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action16]
[NEW] ACTION: r12a to check regarding processing of the minutes
and get back to the group [recorded in
[46]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: Richard to ensure that people are notified about
github issues [recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action17]
[NEW] ACTION: Shervin to add list of references to spreadsheet
and assign unique identifiers [recorded in
[48]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action14]
[NEW] ACTION: Shervin to add unique ids to the references list
[recorded in
[49]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: Shervin to process links proposed by Richard
[recorded in
[50]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: Shervin to put together a preliminary list of
existing literature [recorded in
[51]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Behnam to file an issue re Math and whether
to exclude that in the first version [recorded in
[52]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html#action07]
[End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 22 October 2015 09:28:17 UTC