Re: Volunteers for Chair?

the link is: https://www.w3.org/community/humancentricai/participants

You've got to be logged in.  I think there should be a vote at some stage,
i'll help with hand-over stuff. Certainly, if others want to put their
hand-up for consideration as to create a contested election, then, I'm
guessing some time will be required to allow enough for people to put their
hat in the ring.

perhaps, best wait a bit and follow-up tomorrow and/or off list, if there's
no other expressions of interest.

I've had stalker issues (simplification) that have had to be addressed by
police / court interventions/orders historically, and have done damage in
anycase; so don't want to make contact info (other than linkedin  / email);
but will provide other contact info privately.

Tim.h.

On Fri, 9 Aug 2024 at 20:29, Michael Robbins <michael@learningpathmakers.org>
wrote:

> I will volunteer to chair the group. I will need your engagement and
> support to do this, Timothy. I also hope to hear from others who may be
> familiar lwith the issues and want to step up.
>
> Regarding work with the next generation:
>
> coda.io <https://coda.io/d/_d7HrfjQE5Tu/Student-Exploration_subN->
> <https://coda.io/d/_d7HrfjQE5Tu/Student-Exploration_subN->
> <https://coda.io/d/_d7HrfjQE5Tu/Student-Exploration_subN->
>
> And
>
> coda.io <https://coda.io/d/_d7HrfjQE5Tu/AI-Club-Elective-Class_suxtd>
> <https://coda.io/d/_d7HrfjQE5Tu/AI-Club-Elective-Class_suxtd>
> <https://coda.io/d/_d7HrfjQE5Tu/AI-Club-Elective-Class_suxtd>
>
> The best time to plant a tree is now:
>
> [image: 1723046338924.jpeg]
>
> Michael Robbins on LinkedIn: #datadignity #regenerativeai #wethepeople
> <https://www.linkedin.com/posts/mwrxyz_datadignity-regenerativeai-wethepeople-activity-7226980160774811648-XG8I>
> linkedin.com
> <https://www.linkedin.com/posts/mwrxyz_datadignity-regenerativeai-wethepeople-activity-7226980160774811648-XG8I>
>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/posts/mwrxyz_datadignity-regenerativeai-wethepeople-activity-7226980160774811648-XG8I>
>
> 🙏🏼🌄M
>
>
>
> On Aug 9, 2024, at 5:59 AM, Timothy Holborn <timothy.holborn@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> 
> Respectfully sir, whilst the opposition, the barriers may have been
> insurmountable for anyone, I do nonetheless believe that I have indeed
> failed..  I am troubled by the implications, the consequences. Yet, the
> responsible approach is to let the group know, that it is indeed, beyond
> me; whilst offering support for anyone willing and/or interested in taking
> on the challenge and related 'mantel', as to do otherwise and continue to
> take the spot - without being equipped to do the job, would be
> dishonourable.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2dkp2jMWRU&list=PLCbmz0VSZ_vponyiYMLdoJ_gGmA-6iwG_&index=5
>
>
> There are a variety of purposeful, in my mind - universal - values, that
> i'm committed to seeking to see successfully make the transition through
> this 'digital transformation' journey, most impactful to younger
> generations in particular; whom, we owe a debt of care & consideration,
> that appears to have been absent in all too many ways, over recent years.
>
>
> https://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/advanced_search?keywords=%22human+centric%22&index-grp=Public__FULL&type-index=&resultsperpage=100&sortby=date-asc
>
> The notion of human centric infosphere (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infosphere ) engineering, has progressed
> alot; yet, the term is muddied and decisions are made clear by what is
> resourced, and what is not. Within various international fora, the call for
> human centric outcomes, whether related to AI - most don't appear to
> understand semantic web = ai (
> https://x.com/DameWendyDBE/status/1172470883610431489 ) & that there's a
> thing, sometimes known as the 'web of data', but they're issues that can
> only really be discussed in person with those charged with the
> responsibility of making decisions, and i can't get there; nor can i fully
> fund the underlying costs of producing the POC / RD&D reqs associated to
> demonstrating alternatives to what it is, the assumptions upon which,
> they're basing their decisions - at least, when employing the english
> language...
>
> i also have a deficit in skills in some areas of importance, which again,
> is a resourcing related issue; alongside structural problems, associated to
> the governance frameworks & priorities of organisations that do have the
> resources, but seemingly find it too hard to make use of them for
> 'humanitarian ict' / human rights related purposes; as is not a problem,
> for works that relate to commodification related activity; and then, as
> noted in the cogai works,
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cogai/
>
> I think there's a series of requirements to ensure works on better
> understanding human consciousness through technological prosthetic
> apparatus are made safe.  the level of 'competitive engagement' that has
> led to what i consider to be defeat, has indeed, been overwhelming..  very
> sad, in my view, but i think also, a fairly surmised position.
>
> I'm not turning to the darkside...  but, if this group is to improve its
> progress  - there should be someone else taking on the difficult task of
> chairing the group, to lead curation of its activities. It is also,
> important to note, that this is a public list, gets consumed by LLMs
> alongside everything else...  working through the human factors, is a
> nontrivial undertaking..  🙏🕊️
>
> Best.
>
> Timo (timothy holborn.
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/ubiquitous/
>
>
> On Fri, 9 Aug 2024 at 04:29, Michael Robbins <
> michael@learningpathmakers.org> wrote:
>
>> “failure” 💔🖤
>>
>> I can’t tell you how many times I’ve given up. Your emails echo deep in
>> my soul, Timothy.
>>
>> I’ve failed
>>
>> I’ve been defeated
>>
>> I can’t do this anymore
>>
>> I say these things to myself almost every day. But somehow I keep going.
>>
>> Here’s what I discovered. We can’t solve the problems we are trying to
>> solve with the web. We have to go so much bigger and a different route.
>>
>> There is no Northern passage. We must dig the Panama Canal.
>>
>> And that doesn’t start with technology, it begins with people. Which is
>> why I spent last year working in an urban school in Washington, DC—working
>> with educators and teaching AI to middle schoolers—to find the edge of
>> opportunity. I found it.
>>
>> I have discovered so much. I’ll leave the public link intact for now for
>> anyone brave and curious to follow my footsteps. For anyone who wants to
>> know the pathway I’ve charted.
>>
>> *Hic sunt dracones*… “Here be dragons”
>>
>> You didn’t fail, Timothy. We have outgrown the web—along with our systems
>> for education and governance in digital society. We have the amazing
>> opportunity to go beyond and build what comes next for learning, digital
>> ecosystems, and democracy.
>>
>> You haven’t failed, Timothy. There is no way through with the web that
>> has carried us so far. We must leave that canoe behind for the journey
>> ahead.
>>
>> Onward 🌄
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/mwrxyz
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2024, at 10:48 AM, Timothy Holborn <timothy.holborn@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> The list is public - so, if you don't want to share the contents provided
>> to the list, maybe you'll have to do something with the link...  just FYI.
>>
>> As the list is public, there's alot i can't get into.  Indeed, i think
>> that's been an on-going issue generally with W3C works & similar, as the
>> real human stuff, the use-cases that try to address serious problems,
>> crimes like human trafficking related issues; the details, aren't for a
>> public list.  indeed also, those pertaining to children, or the many other
>> areas where our humanity, gets truely tested - not merely on the 'sunny
>> days', but rather, how our technology serves us, as members of our humanity
>> - when things aren't all ok...
>>
>> it seems the ideals believed, are that a wallet will sort it all out -
>> don't worry if you loose your phone, they can get you access to the wallet
>> again - i assume..?
>>
>> therein also, leading to another area of thought, that's seemingly not
>> really allowed.  i'm very sad about a great many things that have been
>> meaningful to me.  I don't think i'll be found wrong, at least, not in the
>> end - but whether and how the WORLD wide web, will grow, is unknown; and,
>> i've survived, although barely at times, some fairly serious attacks as the
>> adversaries - go get this wallet thing done, seemingly because it'll
>> protect human rights, support our values - better - even if i disagree..
>> or, perhaps, until later, idk.
>>
>> W3C can produce 'recommendations', or methods to do stuff.  In my time
>> with Web-Payments, WebID, RWW, Credentials, SchemaGen and various other
>> bits and pieces (inc. the old webizen initiative) ;  i remember the
>> journey, few were there, billions now impacted.
>>
>> personally,
>>
>> i've got a workstation that i'll use to adjust my deliberations around
>> the reality of what is, rather than what i'd hoped, as articulated back in
>> 2013,14, etc.  but, certainly not enough, not well enough.. wanting to
>> build parts, in a less than peaceful space.
>>
>> The workstation has a few a4500/a4000 GPUs, dual xeon, 256Gb ram, etc.
>> once i've done some background work on it, i'll be setting it up to be a
>> private & personal AI server;  there's some bits & pieces
>> https://github.com/WebizenAI/  basically, building upon the old
>> 'read-write web' stack, then making various adjustments - inc. wireguard
>> related personal networking, probably also patch in nymtech - seems, sadly,
>> some of the elders - well, maybe we do need a new bbs age like - 'new
>> internet' initiative.. Maybe, it's essential that those who remember the
>> dial up days, DIY, etc.  get stuck into making an alternative, just in case
>> digital slavery does become the dystopian underpinnings to a realm we don't
>> want.  i dont know.
>>
>> there's a list of objectives outlined in posts
>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-humancentricai/  - one of
>> the major things that led to this group, was that i wanted to get human
>> rights documents put into RDF, so that they could be used when forming
>> agreements with one-another in social-web implementations (where there's no
>> 3rd party platform intermediaries required between all human
>> relationships); then finding, in the WSIS / UN related stuff, a range of
>> problems that in my view, have proven themselves to have been
>> overwhelmingly well prosecuted, over a very long period of time..  So, I
>> didn't want to make a platform where hosts couldn't kick bad actors off it,
>> nor did I want to own the human rights instruments as defined for digital
>> transformation, or the ai safety protocols that were / are needed, etc..
>> Yet, the expectations, need to be reasonable, and, i don't think the
>> dynamics related to that stuff, will be first discussed on a public w3c
>> list, although, i hope at some stage - it does happen & that it does
>> in-fact lead to good outcomes, not just rebranding processes for old
>> programs.
>>
>> brave new world... IMHO: Asymmetrical pervasive surveillance is a
>> remarkable feat of engineering - doesn't have much to do with STEM, but
>> nonetheless, remarkable stuff...  how people can suffer so much, without
>> means to have disputes resolved peacefully in courts of law; as others,
>> apparently know everything..  they're values, are just so distant to me..
>> i've been losing hope.  I started, the renewed efforts in 2010 in a manner
>> linked with presenting: https://vimeo.com/30416090 on the screens, at an
>> event of importance, CHOGM 2011, having been handed 'the commission'...
>> but that's now, so many years ago...  its not like, there hasn't been an
>> opportunity, or that we didn't produce the tools to empower them to do so;
>> they just had other priorities...  apparently, making them - better
>> people..  so, ok...
>>
>> but, i don't think the technological infrastructure is at all
>> human-centric; and, it seems any honourable effort to address it, has a
>> negligible chance of success, irrespective of whether the words appear in
>> marketing materials, or whatever else, linked with promotions...
>>
>> Telecoms, selling ISDN connections at $1000 PCM, weren't promoting ADSL
>> for $50 PCM, in-fact, they got in the way.  Cable Companies, didn't help
>> VOD systems; and CDNs, wrecked the international investigative journalism
>> industry, as pricing control was centralised into the US via companies that
>> didn't make any money - but - owned the global marketsphere & its
>> advertising revenue markets...  so, no funding - just, public relations as
>> a replacement, in an ecosystem that seems to prefer people forget, than
>> tell the truth...
>>
>> The group now has no chair.  If any member would like to become the
>> chair, they just need to log in & goto
>> https://www.w3.org/community/humancentricai/participants
>>
>> officially, there should be a vote - via teleconf - but, we've not
>> managed to do that yet generally..  if people are interested in a teleconf,
>> let me know, or indeed also, feel welcome to have one without me ;)
>>
>> I think, if the WORLD wide web is to survive...  that is, something that
>> is for all members of our human family..  then, well.  its 'the people',
>> who will have to go do what needs to be done, to make sure that happens for
>> the betterment of our human family, in a manner that is representative of
>> our values..  and truth, at least seeking to work through it - even if it
>> upsets someone, or has serious repercussive implications upon others -
>> well, shouldn't mean its not allowed; and somehow, the values, the aspects
>> of life that are of most importance, to need attention - without having to
>> expose it all to public lists, where people look for weaknesses in their
>> combat fantasies seeking to defeat 'competitors', for profits, or
>> whatever...   at times, its almost like i should start selling books
>> declared to be god..  not sure what the digitally transformed alternative
>> is, but, regardless, i think the objective overall is to seek to ensure
>> however its defined, its able to be commodified.
>>
>> i'm just unable to maintain a high level of output, without resources,
>> trying to smile & be friendly to all, whilst so troubled by the
>> implications of what has in-fact happened in the past, morally sought, if
>> honourable, to be silent about it.
>>
>> so, i think someone who is 'unburdened by the past' or whatever the
>> statement is, is needed for a w3c human centric AI effort - if indeed, it's
>> something sought to be maintained at all.  Certainly also, if there is no
>> interest, the group can be closed, per w3c rules & processes.
>>
>> FWIW also;  I'm also looking for expressions of interest for 'web
>> civics', which i set-up in 2014 as there wasn't any organisation in the
>> internet governance ecosystems to support the production of free software,
>> as required for human rights related purposes.  i recently spoke about
>> humanitarian ict at the IETF119; and had planned to work on ontology for an
>> 'agent discovery protocol' ecosystem, intended to impact a few things
>> including 'human centric internet' as it was termed by IGF - but it seemed
>> like, a few competitive alternatives then emerged - and, i'm troubled by
>> many of the dynamics brought about as a consequence of credentials being
>> commercialised without the other pieces - for reasons, i'm not sure is
>> appropriate to go into, on these lists.
>>
>> BRICS has alot of people within participating jurisdictions, last I
>> checked, it's all associated to members of our human family who exist in
>> our WORLD..  whether & how the World Wide Web & related ecosystems grow, or
>> fail to, idk. As noted, I feel I've been defeated.
>>
>> I've failed.  apologies, but i did my best..
>>
>> best wishes.
>>
>> Tim.
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/ubiquitous/
>>
>> On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 at 22:59, Michael Robbins <
>> michael@learningpathmakers.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Timothy,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your thoughtful email. I understand and share your
>>> frustrations. I’ve been on a parallel journey for the last decade+ as a
>>> social entrepreneur working at the intersection of education, the web, and
>>> community change.
>>>
>>> I have reached a set of extensive conclusions and operating hypotheses
>>> related to your remarks and the mission of this group. Much of my knowledge
>>> and wisdom comes from direct experience and failure. It is complex and a
>>> LOT to explain.
>>>
>>> I have put as much as possible into a Coda repository. This is not for
>>> public distribution but I’m talking a leap of faith and sharing it with you
>>> and the rest of this group. I call it the Yantismor Codex.
>>>
>>> coda.io <https://coda.io/d/_d7HrfjQE5Tu/Dotes-Deck_suFD1>
>>> <https://coda.io/d/_d7HrfjQE5Tu/Dotes-Deck_suFD1>
>>> <https://coda.io/d/_d7HrfjQE5Tu/Dotes-Deck_suFD1>
>>>
>>> I’m continuing to advance parts of this as possible with a fww close
>>> collaborators. It’s challenging given my staunch commitment to the public
>>> good and exodus from our age of technofeudalism.
>>>
>>> I would welcome a discussion with everyone who is interested in learning
>>> more and exploring together.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/mwrxyz
>>>
>>> On Aug 8, 2024, at 4:57 AM, Timothy Holborn <timothy.holborn@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> FYI - FWIW - just figured out the archives link:
>>> https://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/advanced_search?resultsperpage=100&sortby=date-asc
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 at 18:54, Timothy Holborn <timothy.holborn@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> It's been reported to me that the group needs to have a chair-person,
>>>> whilst i note, i've seen other groups without one.  I think this is an
>>>> administrative requirement..
>>>>
>>>> There's a bit to update the group about, write a post about..  or
>>>> perhaps a few posts...  but i'd like to step-down as chair, which means
>>>> there needs to be a replacement.
>>>>
>>>> This doesn't mean that I'm unsupportive of efforts to bring about
>>>> technological infrastructure that may reasonably support a variety of, what
>>>> I'd consider to be universal ideals..  Yet, the conclusion that I've come
>>>> to, again, overall is that i' feeling overwhelmingly defeated.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not presently sure how to best articulate, circumstances,
>>>> deliberations, considerations & implications; that are complex, and in some
>>>> areas of most importance, have serious privacy implications; whilst others,
>>>> pertain to confidences, and behaving honourably is important to me.
>>>>
>>>> I started work on what i later called 'human centric' ecosystems, in
>>>> 2000, due to a relatives work on how synaptic nerve-cells work which led
>>>> him to be awarded a nobel prize, i was inspired by that work, alongside
>>>> other factors - and went about designing an ecosystem for online data
>>>> storage, that was based upon people owning their own data, and sharing
>>>> content by links.  There were many facets involved in these first 'crescent
>>>> network' / iBank designs, i was very young, troubled, naive & overall, just
>>>> starting out, after several years in the ICT sector as a young person..
>>>> These works developed through an initial attempt, that led to an
>>>> involvement with 'video on demand' and even 'streaming games' (soon
>>>> thereafter); alongside wifi, and all sorts of other things; but, to
>>>> characterise a fundamental dispute, there was opposing ideas; whilst i
>>>> wanted fairness, means to empower people, the opposite point of view was to
>>>> use the opportunity to manipulatively aggregate & seek to 'own it all', as
>>>> a super aggregator...  this was a problem, that i've been struggling to
>>>> ensure that at least alternatives exist to, since then.  It appears the
>>>> consequence of various complex issues now leads to a thin-client 'wallet'
>>>> based model being monopolistically deployed, and, i don't understand how to
>>>> support access to justice, means for people to store & be able to use in a
>>>> court of law, even if in poverty, electronic evidence pertaining to their
>>>> lives to lawful remedy, peacefully and in a timely manner; as does in-turn
>>>> also, impact our capacity to support STEM, fair-trading, electronic
>>>> agreements where both parties define terms rather than asymmetrical
>>>> agreements that may vary whenever; and beyond the many complex social
>>>> implications, there are also significant issues pertaining to engineering
>>>> systems to better support human consciousness via our technological
>>>> infrastructure that's increasingly acting as a prosthetic dependency upon
>>>> life, the lives of people, etc.
>>>>
>>>> the outcome is also, that whilst i feel defeated - those who may be
>>>> considered to have 'won', also do so in an ecosystem that poorly supports
>>>> accountability, provenance tracking & personal responsibility.  Whilst
>>>> seemingly good for some to 'make money' or indeed others, to merely get
>>>> more promotions - it seems, such beneficiaries can always claim they've
>>>> always been doing it, and so long as they've got the resources from the
>>>> past wins, it doesn't really matter - whilst seeking to maintain an
>>>> honourable approach, provide means to deliver outcomes where people can own
>>>> the software (licensing, patent-pool considerations, etc) pertaining to
>>>> their own thoughtware - well - that's work that's done in poverty, without
>>>> funding or safety and the outcome of these fundamental requirements means
>>>> that these foundations need to be ownable, by the 'data subject',
>>>> themselves...  their own thoughtware...  their own 'api', defined by them -
>>>> without undue interference or coercion.
>>>>
>>>> means, in-turn, to build the test apparatus needed to better understand
>>>> consciousness..  but how can that be done safely, given the environmentals
>>>> generally..  I really don't know.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed, whether its called 'human centric', which i termed due to
>>>> needing to have a condition in the earlier W3C work to ensure modalities of
>>>> outcomes were broader than 'platform owned' or 'corporation centric' or
>>>> indeed also, government centric - as the intellectual property for natural
>>>> persons, wasn't supported - so, that's why a new term was needed, and i
>>>> thought about it; notes can be found by searching the lists - noting, i've
>>>> just gone to the link, it appears to have changed..  anyhow.  As noted,
>>>> feeling defeated and due also to the code of conduct, I don't think
>>>> discussion about some of the related issues can be discussed - regardless
>>>> of science or reality...
>>>>
>>>> two last notes.
>>>>
>>>> with respect to protecting the human rights & interests of children and
>>>> in-turn also, identity development - which is a term pertaining to
>>>> psychology / social sciences.  I understand efforts are being made to apply
>>>> the wallet to all things internet.  i don't think itll deliver what they
>>>> say it'll fix, but, if that's not the point of doing it - i probably can't
>>>> talk about it anyway.
>>>>
>>>> a straight forward solution is to use RDF on domains or even posts, to
>>>> provide information about whether the content is suitable for children; ie:
>>>> ratings. and then, have a browser plugin or OS tool that looks for these
>>>> files, and then makes decisions based on what it says.  this means ontology
>>>> needs to be done for it, and somme other tooling - fairly straight forward,
>>>> should probably be done by schemaorg | could also be done in a way that
>>>> means it associates to particular posts in a social media system, rather
>>>> than just the high-level domain / URL.
>>>>
>>>> also; there's a bunch of stuff that i don't particularly want to see as
>>>> an adult, therefore, restricting this approach to merely considering the
>>>> interests of children as a child focused outcome; may in-fact, diminish the
>>>> ability for the outcome to do so - for children.   Therefore, i considered
>>>> the notion of terming any such initiative a personalisation solution
>>>> 'myweb', which therein has a particularly attentive focus upon delivering
>>>> outcomes to address the needs of young people.   The outcome would require
>>>> websites to install the file and/or ontological supports, much like
>>>> accessibility projects.
>>>>
>>>> soe notes about it - still poorly drafted (imho)
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1c1Afo-bja_jksBEynHyG7nBDz71TAPOZYkagdoh4e6A/edit
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> AND finally,  I apologise for not having been able to achieve more
>>>> since i instigated the creation of the group.  There has been alot of work
>>>> in the background, i'll go into it at some later stage.  But, should others
>>>> have a belief in the notion called 'human centric' AI, Internet, etc..
>>>>  then - finding someone willing to take on the role of Chair, would be very
>>>> much welcomed and i'll do my best to support it, but that's not
>>>> delivering much atm.  so, I guess, this is an honourable result..
>>>>
>>>> I have managed to obtain the 2nd hand parts to build a workstation that
>>>> is suitable for local LLM related AI work.  I'm hopeful that i'll be able
>>>> to build an environment that'll be good for art, RD&D, etc.
>>>>
>>>> but this is different, to seeking to...  well.  I'm very troubled about
>>>> the implications associated to some of my earlier works and the direction
>>>> the world is going in generally, the implications, etc.  as i'm defeated,
>>>> it appears the higher-level consensus must be, that i'm wrong; otherwise,
>>>> why would the resources go into the stuff thats troubling, rather than
>>>> solutions for tooling to help deliver SDGs and do all the good things -
>>>> unless, the so called 'promoter' of such sorts of solutions, is wrong.
>>>>
>>>> But thankyou for your time.  It's been a difficult ~12 years or so of
>>>> W3C works..  i'll write about my personal deliberations otherwise,
>>>> somewhere else.  I am happy to help any incoming chair learn more about the
>>>> stuff they may not know re: w3c, etc.  where i can help..
>>>>
>>>> I'll write about my view of what i intended re: human centric / human
>>>> centric ai, sometime soon.  but, i do worry, that work with the best of
>>>> intention - can seemingly be perverted - its like, inventing a hammer, then
>>>> seeing it go to market as a new weapon, rather than something that's really
>>>> helpful, when seeking to build homes...  notwithstanding the moral hazard
>>>> with oversimplifications...
>>>>
>>>> 🙏
>>>>
>>>> Timo.
>>>>
>>>