W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > April 2016

RE: Always use h1-h6 by level again

From: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 10:21:39 -0500
To: "'Chaals McCathie Nevile'" <chaals@yandex-team.ru>, "'White, Jason J'" <jjwhite@ets.org>, "'Alastair Campbell'" <acampbell@nomensa.com>
Cc: "'HTML WG'" <public-html@w3.org>
Message-ID: <015901d19986$015d1580$04174080$@deque.com>
Hi,

As I read this thread, I actually am hearing a few different issues and questions:

1) Should we withdraw the "magic heuristic outline" proposal from HTML5 that has not been implemented? 

	Yes, 100% support

2) Should we contemplate pursing a new <h> element that would pursue this nesting idea slightly differently (closer to the XHTML2 model)? 

	I would support that effort, yes. It would be interesting to pursue the stateless Heading element, but I fear we may not get support from the browser vendors, but it would be worth the ask.

3) Should we explore the ability to extend the levels beyond <h6> (and, by extension, what if any impact would that have on aria-level, which I note does not provide a fixed limit of enumeration?) There has already been some discussion that states that screen readers are supporting aria-level=7. (https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_role%3Dheading_to_identify_headings) 

	I'm less keen on exploring an idea around <h7>, <h8>, etc., as I note that ARIA apparently already allows for that via the aria-level attribute, and it would be more a question of user-agent support. If ePub has tools/platforms that *can* support a deeper hierarchy, I'm keen to see us support that in our specs however, so if there *is* a need for deeper Heading levels, we should at least chat about that some.

JF



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chaals McCathie Nevile [mailto:chaals@yandex-team.ru]
> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 8:03 AM
> To: White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>; Alastair Campbell
> <acampbell@nomensa.com>
> Cc: HTML WG (public-html@w3.org) <public-html@w3.org>
> Subject: Re: Always use h1-h6 by level again
> 
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2016 10:30:53 +0200, Alastair Campbell
> <acampbell@nomensa.com> wrote:
> 
> > White, Jason J wrote:
> >> I support the proposed solution to define and implement a new <h>
> >> element, and to maintain the original semantics of <h1> - <h6>. This
> >> would also solve the problem of having more than 6 heading levels
> >> (admittedly a rare case of which I'm yet to encounter an example).
> >
> > I haven’t seen it as a problem on the web (in a way that couldn’t be
> > solved by simplifying the page), but do ebooks count in this context?
> 
> Sure.
> 
> But to be clear, there are two proposals on the table with very different effects.
> 
> The first is to remove the outlining-based stuff that doesn't work from the HTML
> specification, which would take effect from the next Public Working Draft, and
> make its way into HTML 5.1 which we hope to have as a Recommendation later
> this year.
> 
> The second, to introduce some kind of heading without level to allow an
> outlining-based solution, is speculative, and will not be adopted into HTML
> without sufficient uptake in reality to reassure us that it is going to become a
> working part of the Web Platform.
> 
> cheers
> 
> > Lack of headings beyond level 6 is a concern for the Digital
> > Publishing Interest Group, and seems to be solid use-case for either
> > more levels, or level-less headings:
> > https://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/#deeply-nested-heading-levels
> > -best-practices
> >
> > I would certainly agree with removing the advice on a non-implemented
> > algorithm (the all-h1 method), and proposing a separate level-less <h>
> > tag would provide a cleaner separation for future implementations.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > -Alastair
> 
> 
> --
> Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
>   chaals@yandex-team.ru - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
Received on Monday, 18 April 2016 15:22:09 UTC

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