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Re: proposal: subline element

From: Andrew Herrington <a.d.herrington@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 20:59:11 +0100
Cc: public-html@w3.org
Message-Id: <2BB3B5E7-136A-4A43-8621-162A680B020F@gmail.com>
To: Jukka K. Korpela <jukka.k.korpela@kolumbus.fi>
I presume the reason for a new element would be for semantic reasons rather than styling (we should just use a span for that)?

So based on that, I'm not sure that a subheading is important enough to need its own tag? For me a tagline/subheading is either important enough to be part of the title or no more important that any other content.

Possibly more importantly, I think subheadings and taglines are very different - the former is often important (see first example) and the latter is often not at all (see second example):

<h1>Barney's <span class="subheading">Beer, Steak and Pool</span></h1>

<h1>Booth's</h1> <span class="tagline">The finest fries in town</span>

Kind regards,


On 29 May 2013, at 18:34, Jukka K. Korpela <jukka.k.korpela@kolumbus.fi> wrote:

> 2013-05-29 14:16, Steve Faulkner wrote:
>> some people in the HTML community have indicated their interest in a
>> feature that provides a semantic indication of  a subheading,
>> subtitle, alternative title or tagline
>> here is a feature proposal to further discussion:
>> http://rawgithub.com/w3c/subline/master/index.html
> This is a better approach than <hgroup>, which has apparently been abandoned, more or less. But it's still too logical and too little logical at the same time.
> First, "a single or multiple subheadings, subtitles, taglines or bylines for a |h1 <http://rawgithub.com/w3c/subline/master/index.html#the-h1-h2-h3-h4-h5-and-h6-elements>|, |h2 <http://rawgithub.com/w3c/subline/master/index.html#the-h1-h2-h3-h4-h5-and-h6-elements>|, |h3 <http://rawgithub.com/w3c/subline/master/index.html#the-h1-h2-h3-h4-h5-and-h6-elements>|, |h4 <http://rawgithub.com/w3c/subline/master/index.html#the-h1-h2-h3-h4-h5-and-h6-elements>|, |h5 <http://rawgithub.com/w3c/subline/master/index.html#the-h1-h2-h3-h4-h5-and-h6-elements>|, or |h6 <http://rawgithub.com/w3c/subline/master/index.html#the-h1-h2-h3-h4-h5-and-h6-elements>| element" isn't really a semantic definition. The words used are too vague, especially considering the worldwide audience we should consider, mostly with a native tongue other than English, often with considerable difficulties with uncommon English words and phrases. The formulation does not really say anything about the meaning of anything, in the good old semantic definition for "meaning". Like most "semantic" definitions, it just tries to describe structure. But even this is unclear here. "Subheading", for example, can mean many different things, ranging from part of a heading shown in smaller font just for practical reasons to a heading at a lower level of structure.
> Second, the correspondence between "subheadings, subtitles, taglines or bylines" and heading elements would be based on the occurrence of elements in a sequence of elements, not on element nesting or explicit references via attributes.
> Third, the "subheadings, subtitles, taglines or bylines" would not be part of the associated heading. I don't see much logic here. A typical subheading, in the sense intended here, is logically part of the heading, just less important, or maybe just rendered in a smaller font (it's actually very difficult to distinguish between these).
> Consider the markup that we can currently use and that works on all browsers:
> <h1>The reality dysfunction<br>
> *<small>*Space is not the only void*</small>*</h1>
> It's logically all part of a single heading, which is too long to be rendered equally prominently. You can style it as needed, and default rendering, on all existing browsers, should be acceptable.
> If you would like to add logic to this, e.g. so that some content "would not be used as a heading in an application extracting heading data and ignoring subheadings" (which refers to rather hypothetical software), then you can simply tell such software to ignore content of <small> elements inside heading elements.
> If this sounds too illogical - since <small> could, in principle, be used for various purposes inside headings -, then I think the constructive approach would be to add an attribute, say type=..., to <small> elements, allowing authors to declare their reason for using <small>. The advantage over adding new elements is that even old legacy browsers can deal with <small type=sub> (they simply ignore the attribute).
> -- 
> Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Received on Wednesday, 29 May 2013 19:59:40 UTC

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