Re: Proposed CR change to default bidi behavior for elements with dir

Yes, I am satisfied with it.

Do note that Ian took a fairly radical approach, removing various prose
requirements (e.g. that <br> should act as a bidi paragraph break) in favor
of a blanket requirement that the default style sheet be followed, with
cross-references to where the default style sheet has bidi implications. I
think it is ok, but others on the i18n WG might want to give this some
thought.


On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:54 AM, Erika Doyle Navara <
Erika.Doyle@microsoft.com> wrote:

>  Hi Aharon,
>
>
>
> Do the subsequent changes [1][2] sufficiently address your concerns? If
> so, I will merge them into the HTML5.1 and CR branches of the W3C spec.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Erika
>
>
>
> [1]
> https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/f397c78de13607ff21d27e112e4663447672a409
>
> [2]
> https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/14f80c82877e0c61187d8af8aa1c9d4738294466
>
>
>
> *From:* Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin [mailto:aharon@google.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, December 2, 2013 12:41 AM
> *To:* Erika Doyle Navara
> *Cc:* public-html@w3.org; member-i18n-core@w3.org; Richard Ishida;
> Addison Phillips; Sam Ruby (rubys@intertwingly.net) (
> rubys@intertwingly.net); Paul Cotton
> *Subject:* Re: Proposed CR change to default bidi behavior for elements
> with dir
>
>
>
> Sorry I did not notice this sooner, but unfortunately, the changes in
> https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/cf3f3dbbc3a28e0b6f82d6395427c84b4bf489a8 (echoing
> the changes in http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8282&to=8283) contain
> a number of serious problems, as described in
> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23260#c20. I have
> suggested fixes there.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 2:41 AM, Erika Doyle Navara <
> Erika.Doyle@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> As I've heard a number of statements of support (in person) and no
> objections, I have folded this change into the CR branch [1].
>
> Please note: since the time I posted the initial spec change for review
> [2], Ian has produced a more comprehensive change [3] that updates some
> descriptions I had missed and that changes <bdo dir="ltr|rtl"> to be
> directionally isolated (to be unicode-bidi: isolate-override instead of
> unicode-bidi: bidi-override), as further requested by the i18n WG [4]. This
> keeps the behavior of dir consistent across different elements and enhances
> the usability of bdo under common usage. It is this later change (from the
> WHATWG spec) that I have chosen to fold into CR (as well as override my
> original change in the HTML5.1 master branch).
>
> Please reply back with any comments or issues.
>
> Thanks,
> Erika
>
> [1]
> https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/ca1986c79c26e49f7781577021b090df159c4c7a
> [2]
> https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/efbf692e44fa3e6b9d66a0823fc2133ff1d18f1e
> [3]
> https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/cf3f3dbbc3a28e0b6f82d6395427c84b4bf489a8
> [4] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23260#c17
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erika Doyle Navara [mailto:Erika.Doyle@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 4:34 PM
> To: 'public-html@w3.org'; member-i18n-core@w3.org; Richard Ishida;
> Addison Phillips; Sam Ruby (rubys@intertwingly.net) (
> rubys@intertwingly.net); Paul Cotton
> Subject: Proposed CR change to default bidi behavior for elements with dir
>
> The I18N working group has requested [1] that bug 22326 [2] be addressed
> in the HTML5 CR timeframe. This bug represents the implementation of the
> I18N proposal [3] to change the bidi semantics of the dir attribute to
> imply isolation rather than embedding.
>
> The technical discussion so far has taken place on the WHATWG cloned bug
> [4], but here is a summary of the pro/con arguments (Richard/I18N members,
> please correct if I have missed or misrepresented anything):
>
> Pro (make dir="" imply unicode-bidi:isolate)
> ==========================================
> - HTML5 is consistent with  Unicode 6.3 spec (and other specs, like CSS3
> Writing Modes) in making isolation the default for all inline bidi text
> embeddings
>
> - Bidirectional text is easy and intuitive for web developers to implement
> correctly, and without needing to know anything about the intricacies of
> bidi algorithm
>
> - Drives browser implementation to make the web less buggy with bidi
> issues. Problems with existing legacy pages will be fixed automatically.
>
> - Easy transition period while browsers adopt new behavior (code will work
> better in browsers with the change, but work the same in browsers without)
>
> - Once a browser supports isolation, it is trivial to implement this
> change in semantics for dir (simple change to default style sheet)
>
> Con (dir="" continues to imply unicode-bidi:embed)
> ===========================================
> - Currently no implementations yet of this behavior
>
> Rebuttal: IE8-IE10 did a similar (but not identical) change, however, and
> there was little or no compat fallout, both according to IE bug records and
> also i18n community
>
> - Default isolation for dir potentially makes the new HTML5 <bdi> element
> seem redundant.
>
> Rebuttal: <bdi> element is still useful in cases when text of unknown
> direction is dynamically inserted to a page (because it has new HTML5
> dir="auto" value as default, which determines dir at run time). Perhaps we
> could even re-label <bdi> from "bidi isolate" to "bidi insert".
>
> ...given the favorable reasons outweighing the unfavorable, I have
> implemented this change in the HTML5.1 Nightly draft, and believe it merits
> porting over to the HTML5 CR draft as well:
>
>
> https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/efbf692e44fa3e6b9d66a0823fc2133ff1d18f1e
>
> Please reply with any objections. Otherwise, I will port this change to
> the CR draft within a couple weeks (11/6).
>
> Thank you,
> Erika
>
> [1]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Oct/0015.html
> [2] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22326
> [3]
> http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Html-bidi-isolation#Proposal_A:_change_the_dir_semantics
> [4] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23260
>
>
>