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Re: Rebuttal of dropHgroup CP (ISSUE-164)

From: Lars Gunther <gunther@keryx.se>
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2011 19:44:55 +0100
Message-ID: <4EB82727.6060906@keryx.se>
To: public-html@w3.org
2011-11-07 07:21, Simon Pieters skrev:
>> The rebuttal also fails to address why hgroup is superior to the other
>> patterns, e.g. this one:
>> <header>
>> <h1 />
>> <p />
>> </header>
> How do you differentiate that with when you want to use a paragraph
> after a heading in <header>? Would it be possible to include the
> subheading (as part of its section's heading) in the ToC, as suggested
> in http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14707 without getting
> full paragraphs in the ToC?

My intention was not to say that a <p> within <header> *becomes* a 
subtitle, rather that it's a pattern that could be used for subtitles.

I.e. I like to propose the idea that we really do not need a dedicated 
markup construct for subtitles at all.

As have been pointed out elsewhere, MS Word does not have a subtitle 
mechanism, nor do any other word processor. AFAIK there is no such 
mechanism in Indesign, Framemaker, Quark Express, etc either.

Thus, my point is that this authoring pattern could be all that is 
needed in HTML.

Sorry if that was unclear.

>> That solution *is* backwards compatible - hgroup is not. Hint: HTML5
>> design principles...
>> Since the p-element is semantically made a part of the header, I'd say
>> it perfectly fits as a solutions for subtitles.
> You said it was bad that <h2> changed meaning based on its placement.
> Why is it OK for <p> to change meaning based on its placement?

My comment above should clarify that issue. I am not talking about 
*formal* semantic change.

And of the two evils (promoting paragraphs and demoting headers) I still 
think the header-p solution is less evil.

> Is it still a subtitle in the following case?:
> <header>
> <h1>...</h1>
>     foo
> <p>...</p>
> </header>

As per above, probably no.


We do not have dedicated elements for:
* lead paragraphs
* footnotes
* spoken dialog

All of these have been suggested at one point or another to be included 
in HTML5 and all of these see way more usage than subtitles.

My estimation is that we can live without a dedicated subtitle element 
and handle that particular authoring need using existing markup.

Whenever a new element has been proposed, there has been a reaction from 
the spec editor that the need must be really justified, since all 
elements come with a cost. Now here I am suggesting that we drop one. 
Judging by the "each element has a cost" principle, that would be a good 
thing, right?

Lars Gunther
Received on Monday, 7 November 2011 18:45:25 UTC

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