Re: HTML5 implementor feedback requested - title attribute accessibility mapping

Hi Steve,

As per IRC chat, Firefox will give aria-label naming precedence to desktop
a11y API for free. I guess the issue is that we're stuck advocating
title-as-name usage until the other browsers do the same? (Yuck)

Cheers,

D

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:32 AM, Steve Faulkner
<faulkner.steve@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Dave,
>
> > There are probably nuances to this I'm not thinking of, but I would
> probably advocate for the usage of aria-label here except perhaps where the
> usage of title-as-tooltip converges with
> title-as-accessible-naming-technique.
> >
> > Does that make sense?
>
>  Title attribute use in the circumstances outlined in the techniques
> cited is a common accessibility usage and very well supported across
> browsers and AT, I would be reluctant to advocate the use of
> aria-label over the use of title in these cases as
> a) we would be encouraging use of ARIA over an established native HTML
> feature usage pattern
> b) we would be encouraging use of a less well supported method, which
> for the forseeable future would result in some users not having access
> to  accessible name information.
>
> best regards
> Steve
>
> On 13 December 2011 16:16, David Bolter <dbolter@mozilla.com> wrote:
> > There are probably nuances to this I'm not thinking of, but I would
> probably advocate for the usage of aria-label here except perhaps where the
> usage of title-as-tooltip converges with
> title-as-accessible-naming-technique.
> >
> > Does that make sense?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > David
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Steve Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
> >> To: "david bolter" <david.bolter@gmail.com>
> >> Cc: "Adrian Bateman" <adrianba@microsoft.com>, "Maciej Stachowiak" <
> mjs@apple.com>, "Anne van Kesteren"
> >> <annevk@opera.com>, "L. David Baron" <dbaron@dbaron.org>, "HTMLWG WG" <
> public-html@w3.org>, "Sam Ruby"
> >> <rubys@intertwingly.net>, "Paul Cotton" <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>,
> "Ian Hickson" <ian@hixie.ch>, "HTML Accessibility
> >> Task Force" <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, "David Bolter" <
> dbolter@mozilla.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 11:08:36 AM
> >> Subject: Re: HTML5 implementor feedback requested - title attribute
> accessibility mapping
> >> Hi dave,
> >>
> >> so in your opinion is use of the title attribute to provide an
> >> accessible name for an element an acceptable method in some cases?
> >>
> >> for example in the following WCAG 2.0 techniques it recommends the
> >> title attribute for form controls
> >>
> >> "The objective of this technique is to use the title attribute to
> >> label form controls when the visual design cannot accommodate the
> >> label "
> >> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H65
> >>
> >> or the the use of the title attribute to identify iframe and frame
> >> elments:
> >> "The use of title as described in this technique is recommended "
> >> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-TECHS/H64.html
> >>
> >> regards
> >> stevef
> >>
> >> On 13 December 2011 15:46, david bolter <david.bolter@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > I don't expect we (Mozilla) will stop using the title attribute
> >> > value as a
> >> > last resort in attempting to provide an accessible name, that would
> >> > regress
> >> > accessibility.
> >> >
> >> > My opinion.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers,
> >> > David
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 6:54 AM, Steve Faulkner
> >> > <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Adrian, Maciej, Anne and David
> >> >> (note: if there is a more approriate implementor representative
> >> >> this
> >> >> email should go to please advise)
> >> >>
> >> >> Your feedback on this would be appreciated.
> >> >>
> >> >> The title attribute as implemented (in all browsers that implement
> >> >> accessibility support) is mapped to the accessible name in all
> >> >> accessibility APIs in all browsers (that implement mapping), so in
> >> >> the
> >> >> absence of other labelling mechanisms, all HTML form controls are
> >> >> labelled by the title attribute content if present. The same goes
> >> >> for
> >> >> most other HTML elements. This reality is not reflected in the
> >> >> usage
> >> >> advice in the spec.
> >> >>
> >> >> There is a WCAG technique that documents how to use the title
> >> >> attribute to label controls: H65: Using the title attribute to
> >> >> identify form controls when the label element cannot be used
> >> >> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H65
> >> >>
> >> >> There is another WCAG 2.0 technique that documents how to use the
> >> >> title attribute to identify frame and iframe elements
> >> >> H64: Using the title attribute of the frame and iframe elements
> >> >> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-TECHS/H64.html
> >> >>
> >> >> The HTML5 specification does not provide any advice on how the
> >> >> title
> >> >> attribute content is used (as detailed above).
> >> >> I filed a bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14740
> >> >>
> >> >> the rationale provided by the HTML5 editor for its rejection:
> >> >>
> >> >> "Rationale: If browsers map it in a manner inconsistent with its
> >> >> meaning,
> >> >> that
> >> >> should be fixed."
> >> >>
> >> >> Do any implementors have any plans to change the current
> >> >> implementation in browsers to match the HTML5 specification
> >> >> meaning?
> >> >>
> >> >> i.e. are there any plans to stop mapping the title attribute to the
> >> >> accessible name in accessibility APIs? So that it does not provide
> >> >> a
> >> >> label for controls and other elements?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> with regards
> >> >> Stevef
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> with regards
> >>
> >> Steve Faulkner
> >> Technical Director - TPG
> >>
> >> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> >> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> >> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> >> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> >> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> >> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>