Re: Styling Controls

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 1:22 AM, Doug Schepers <> wrote:
> Hi, Shelley-
> Shelley Powers wrote (on 4/7/10 1:41 AM):
>> I agree on the benefit of ARIA. I've become rather a fan. I don't
>> think of it as accessibility, I think of it as "rendering semantics".
> Yes, we certainly agree there.  I really like ARIA, and make sure to have at
> least one ARIA slide in every presentation I do.
>> I'm not sure if the same concerns that have been expressed in the
>> past, and codified in the conformance section of the CSS 2.1
>> specification are different now. For instance, I don't particularly
>> think we should be able to style buttons or selection elements beyond
>> what we already can. They are simple, uncomplicated controls and don't
>> need to be gussied up. Doing so does have a potential impact on
>> usability.
> I'm not sure I follow your argument.  One of the more common uses of script
> library controls is to allow styled buttons.  Yes, styling buttons could be
> abused... but it also harms usability if the text of a page is the same
> color as the background, which CSS permits.  That's a silly example, of
> course... but it's just to illustrate the point that content creators will
> learn what works and what doesn't, and successful sites will be those that
> use their powers for the good of their users. In other words, I think we
> should give people enough rope to hang themselves if that's the same rope
> they need to climb over barriers. :)

I'm not necessarily sure that styling is the only issue with the
library implementations.

>> I am concerned, though, that all of a sudden, there's this intense
>> interest to style form elements, all occurring at the same time that
>> we we're really challenging both the relevance and usefulness of new,
>> complex, and generally unimplemented form elements.
> I understand that that's your agenda.  I have a different agenda.  I think
> they are orthogonal (though related) issues, as I mentioned to Maciej.  So,
> you are free to question the inclusion of new form controls, but I think
> styling all such controls needs to be pursued regardless of the outcome of
> your proposals.

My agenda? I have no agenda. By the time anything useful comes of this
in CSS, we'll be a couple of years or so down the road from where we
are. It has no impact on anything I'm doing. It could very well have
an impact on many of us in the future, and I'm mainly concerned that
the impact be seen as positive by all the impacted communities.

I perceive this sudden interest to be both impulsive and bordering on
the rash. However, my perception could be faulty.

>> However, I'm not a member of the CSS WG, so have no say, one way or
>> another. Perhaps you or another member of the CSS WG can link ongoing
>> discussions on this new interest in form element styling in CSS back
>> to this group, so we can keep informed.
> I'm not a member of the CSS WG, I'm just a busybody.  You have about as much
> say there as I do.  In fact, several current members of the CSS WG started
> as public commentors on the www-style list, and were recruited as Invited
> Experts (or were hired by member companies, or both).  The CSS WG is a
> public group, meaning that it does much of its technical work in public, and
> takes feedback from the public list (like the SVG, WebApps, and a majority
> of other W3C WGs).

No, I have enough on my hands right now. And my one time when I cc'd
the group ended up being a very unpleasant, leaving me somewhat
confused as to what is or is not acceptable communication.

But thanks for the info.

> But, yes, if the CSS WG does act on this, then they should (and I trust
> will) report back regularly to the HTML WG... a Form Control Styling Task
> Force might even be useful.

Yes, we'll have to see how the CSS WG wants to manage all of this
sudden interest in control styling. I just hope that the members act

> Regards-
> -Doug Schepers
> W3C Team Contact, SVG and WebApps WGs


Received on Wednesday, 7 April 2010 13:25:11 UTC