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Re: Bug 8404 -- taking it to the lists

From: Shelley Powers <shelley.just@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 16:52:38 -0600
Message-ID: <643cc0270912011452g76a15a9bha76b0aa3d70f6dca@mail.gmail.com>
To: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
Cc: HTML WG <public-html@w3.org>
On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Shelley Powers <shelley.just@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Laura Carlson
> <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Shelley,
>>> True, people will want to use any element in any way, but that doesn't
>>> mean we have to codify such usage.
>> This all seems to go back to the "Pave The Cowpaths" Design Principle
>> [1], which has been argued explicitly and implicitly for over two and
>> a half years in many discussions.
> I've given up on cowpaths.
> For the last ten years, HTML has told page authors to use summary on
> tables, and definition lists (dl) for dialogs, that dt is definition
> term, and dd is definition description. Now, suddenly, seemingly,
> we've shot the cows.
> No one wants to keep bad practices, like using tables for layout. But
> too many of the changes seem arbitrary, and based on opinion and
> hearsay.
>> The HTML 5 design principles never achieved consensus and here we are,
>> trying to reach Last Call. HTML5 principles are a “work in progress”
>> [2].
>> There is no meeting of the minds on the basic principles at this late
>> date. So it is difficult to agree on specifics. We keep having the
>> same types of circular debates here [3] [4]  and elsewhere [5] [6].
> At least the figure discussion is sparkly new. Well, kind of. It's a
> new path for an old story.
> What's happening now is to be expected.
> The odd thing about work that impacts on many different groups of
> people, is that at some point you have to work towards general
> agreement with enough of the community to give credence to what you
> create. If you don't sooner, you will have to later. And the later you
> wait, the more contentious the issues, the larger the disagreements,
> the wider the chasms between groups.
> Interesting the discussion in the accessibility growth. Thanks for
> pointing it out here. I don't always keep up with the ally group's
> emails.
>> Best Regards,
>> Laura
> Regards
> Shelley
>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007May/thread.html#msg940
>> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#sotd
>> [3] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8404
>> [4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Dec/thread.html#msg5
>> [5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2009Dec/0002.html
>> [6] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2009Dec/0003.html
>> --
>> Laura L. Carlson

PS, I realize that cowpaths have to do with users following their own

But the worst thing you can do to users is be inconsistent--saying one
thing one time, and something completely different another, and have
no legitimate reason for the change.

Too much of that happening in HTML5.

Received on Tuesday, 1 December 2009 22:53:12 UTC

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