- From: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
- Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 22:17:15 +0000 (UTC)
- To: "John Foliot - WATS.ca" <foliot@wats.ca>
- Cc: 'HTML WG' <public-html@w3.org>, 'W3C WAI-XTECH' <wai-xtech@w3.org>
On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, John Foliot - WATS.ca wrote: > > > > If the image is actually a _replacement_ for text that otherwise > > existed, why would the user care that the author had made the > > stylistic choice to use an image instead? I don't understand. > > > > Specifically, the example in the spec is talking about an author who > > has something like this: > > > > <p>In the common case, the data handled by the tokenization stage > > comes from the network, but it can also come from script.</p> > > <p>The network passes data to the Tokeniser stage, which > > passes data to the Tree Construction stage. From there, data goes > > to both the DOM and to Script Execution. Script Execution is > > linked to the DOM, and, using document.write(), passes data to > > the Tokeniser.</p> > > > > ...and decides to replace the text with an image. Why should there be > > _any_ difference for the non-visual user? What the spec proposes: > > > > <p>In the common case, the data handled by the tokenization stage > > comes from the network, but it can also come from script.</p> > > <p><img src="images/parsing-model-overview.png" alt="The network > > passes data to the Tokeniser stage, which passes data to the Tree > > Construction stage. From there, data goes to both the DOM and to > > Script Execution. Script Execution is linked to the DOM, and, using > > document.write(), passes data to the Tokeniser."></p> > > > > ...seems like exactly what the user would want. Why should the user > > who doesn't have access to images be affected here? > > OK, fair questions. The problem however is that you are making a > judgment call of what the 'user' might want based upon your subjective > point of view, which is based upon your subjective interpretation of the > author's intent. How do you know these things? In the case of the example above, I'm both the author and the reader. > You yourself are not a blind user, so how do you know what any blind > user might want, never-mind all blind users? This isn't only about blind users. It's about users who can't use the image. I am such a user on a regular basis, as I use various text-mode browsers. (Obviously, though, each user may have different desires.) > Thing is, the author didn't provide text, he provided an illustration > (parsing-model-overview.png). Actually in this particular case the author wrote the text then wrote the illustration to replace it. (I know, it was me.) > So the image then is more likely a flow chart, or a Venn diagram or > something similar to that - and that is legitimate, but introduces an > aspect beyond simple text representation as it is a more complex > visualization. How so? The image is the one in the spec: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/images/parsing-model-overview.png It really doesn't convey any more than the text given above. > So, to solve the 'problem', I would likely go with: > > <p>In the common case, the data handled by the tokenization stage > comes from the network, but it can also come from script.</p> > <img src="images/parsing-model-overview.png" alt="flow chart illustrating > the parsing model overview" longdesc="parsing_model_overview.html"> > <p>The network passes data to the Tokeniser stage, which > passes data to the Tree Construction stage. From there, data goes > to both the DOM and to Script Execution. Script Execution is > linked to the DOM, and, using document.write(), passes data to > the Tokeniser.</p> As a user who regularly has to view the Web without images, I assure you that I would find this significantly less useful and more annoying than the second example above. As a text-only reader, I really *do not care* that there is an image here. The image doesn't add anything to the discussion; calling attention to it feels like the author laughing at me for not being able to see images. It frankly feels rude. > (* where parsing_model_overview.html would also attempt to explain the > visualization in greater detail than the subsequent on-screen text > provides) I'll grant you that some images might benefit from a separate treatment, though in practice in fourteen years of browsing the Web I can still count the number of images I've seen with such treatment on the fingers of one hand, so I don't think it's worth providing a dedicated feature for (all such descriptions in fact are just as useful for sighted users and thus <a href=""> handles them quite adequately). And that's even with my having specifically done extensive research looking for such descriptions. However, in this particular case, I really don't see what such a description could possibly add. > The education piece of the spec (and I grant that you have spent time > working on that, and that is a good thing) needs to also point out that > images are not the appropriate place to be putting large blocks of > critical text - something that WAI has been saying for close to a > decade. Sometimes, images are just the best way to convey something. Consider, for example, Feynmann diagrams. It would be inappropriate to require the Web to convey information only in the least-common-denominator medium simply because a minority of users are unable to use the best medium. Similarly, some situations, such as a blind person uploading their photos for their friends to describe to them, have nothing _but_ a visual representation. So it would make no sense to suggest using text instead. Rather, we encourage authors to provide textual alternatives where possible. > Our best understanding at this time is that the majority of daily users of > screen reading technology generally prefer terse descriptions of images on > first pass Really? They prefer terse descriptions of images to just self-contained text with no images at all? This seems to run counter to what you've been saying up to this point. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E )\._.,--....,'``. fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Received on Saturday, 25 April 2009 22:17:54 UTC