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RE: <q>

From: Justin James <j_james@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:36:21 -0400
To: "'Sam Kuper'" <sam.kuper@uclmail.net>
Cc: "'HTML WG'" <public-html@w3.org>
Message-ID: <00e801c939f5$3d674a80$b835df80$@com>

From: public-html-request@w3.org [mailto:public-html-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Sam Kuper
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 2:04 PM
To: Justin James
Subject: Re: <q>

2008/10/29 Justin James <j_james@mindspring.com>
>> I think that we all (you, me, Sam) agree that HTML specification should not
>> define this behavior, that it is better left to the CSS folks.
> I do *not* agree. Again, please do not put words in my mouth.

You have indeed stated that you want this to be defined as a CSS item. So if I understand this correctly (as well as some other things you have said), what you *really* want is:

* <q> to be defined in HTML as simply, "denotes a quotation" or something similarly simple (I agree with this, by the way)
* The creation of a default CSS styling sheet, in which <q> will be styled with quotes before and after
* This default CSS sheet is to be defined and controlled by the people working on HTML, not CSS

Is this accurate?
>> * Redefine <q> to remove this idea of magic quotes
> By "magic quotes", I believe you mean quotation marks generated by UAs upon encountering
> <q> elements.* If so, then I do *not* agree <q> should be redefined to "remove the idea"
> of them. I have stated my reasons for this in previous posts.

Again, I think that your reasons are a real edge case. I just have not heard any clamor for quotation marks to appear by themselves, anywhere.

> <p><q>I'm tired of this,</q> he said.</p>
> is a far more elegant solution, for the reasons expressed in my previous emails in this
> thread.

This is *only* "elegant" for someone not accustomed to typing quotation marks. It is trivial for an authoring tool to swap quotation marks with &quot; entities. It is not trivial for an authoring tool to figure out where it would be appropriate to replace quotation marks with <q>. This is only of benefit to people hand-authoring the HTML code of actual content, which is a smaller and smaller percentage of the world every day, as more people write things that end up being HTML.

>> * Ping the CSS folks and ask them to take up this issue
> If rules for the recommended default presentation of <q> elements end up being codified
> in a codex that is referenced by the HTML 5 spec, rather than being incorporated into it
> (either option is acceptable to me), then there is the question of which group(s) should 
> collect and maintain those rules. I certainly have *not* suggested that this task fall on
> the shoulders of the CSS WG. The only role in this I feel CSS must have is in providing a
> language in which to encode those rules.

Other people have, and I believe that it is sensible. As I have stated before, it is quite clear that what you want (a default CSS styling) is not on the horizon for HTML 5 or this group. Very few places in the HTML spec define presentation, except where absolutely necessary, as far as I know. This proposal very much so "breaks" the intent of HTML.

> Once more: please do not put words in my mouth.

Sorry, I should have replaced the statement that we agreed with "agreed on a number of points".

Received on Wednesday, 29 October 2008 18:37:22 UTC

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