- From: Michael(tm) Smith <mike@w3.org>
- Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 02:30:55 +0900
- To: public-html@w3.org
http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-html-wg-minutes.html
Present
MikeSmith, DanC, Julian, Laura, JoshueO, Gregory_Rosmaita,
PatrickIon, Robert_Gonia, DougSchepers, ChrisWilson, anneVK
Chair
DanC
Scribe
MikeSmith
* Topics
1. Convene, review agenda, plan next meeting
2. ISSUE-14 aria-role
3. ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml
_________________________________________________________
<DanC> action-48?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-48 -- Dan Connolly to start mailing list on
phrase level semantic elements -- due 2008-03-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/48
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/48
<DanC> DanC: anybody mind if I withdraw?
<DanC> close action-48
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-48 Start mailing list on phrase level semantic
elements closed
<DanC> next meeting should be 4p PT Thu 10 Apr, ChrisW to chair
Convene, review agenda, plan next meeting
ISSUE-14 aria-role
<Steve_f> hi Dan, i am unable to attend as i have to go and pick up
my daughter from nursery at this time, any chance of making it later
or earlier next week +/- 1hour?
<DanC> you can ask chrisw, Steve
<DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/14
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/14
<oedipus> GJR: PF convened a special meeting at a special time to
accommodate participation by HTML WG members in discussion of
aria-role in HTML5 on 25 march 2008 but no one save PF people turned
up -- SimonP valiantly tried to join the call, but could not dial in
for some technological reason and was there on IRC
issue-14?
<trackbot-ng> ISSUE-14 -- Integration of WAI-ARIA roles into HTML5
-- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/14
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/14
<Steve_f> ok no problem
<DanC> pointer to records of that meeting, pls?
<DanC> or meeting call?
oedipus: we convened a special meeting to help others to attend, but
nobody other than PF people managed to join
... we have meeting minutes but they are member-only
<DanC> ACTION-8?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-8 -- Michael Cooper to discuss with PFWG role
attribute vs aria attribute -- due 2008-02-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/8
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/8
oedipus: we have not been able to get a critical mass of people from
outside PF to join in the discussion
<DanC> close action-8
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-8 Discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria
attribute closed
<DanC> close ACTION-9
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-9 Discuss UML tools with DanC closed
<oedipus> member-confidential record:
http://www.w3.org/2008/03/25-pf-minutes.html
http://www.w3.org/2008/03/25-pf-minutes.html
<DanC> ACTION-23?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-23 -- Gregory Rosmaita to coordinate tests
using ARIA -- due 2008-02-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/23
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/23
<Steve_f> Dan - can you note that action 54 is in progress still, we
are waiting on response from PF WG on use of normative statements.
<DanC> action-54?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-54 -- Gregory Rosmaita to work with SteveF
draft text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include
@alt on img elements -- due 2008-04-10 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
<DanC> Steve_f, we're not there just now
oedipus: we don't have the level of collaboration with the HTML WG
that we would like
<DanC> re tests... al gilman gave me
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Mar/0069.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Mar/0069.html
<Steve_f> apologies
<oedipus> Paciello Groups' ARIA tests:
http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=53
http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=53
oedipus - we will neither add nor [remove] any roles at this point
oedipus - navigation and landmark roles [two types]
<DanC> DanC: do the Paciello Groups' ARIA tests enumerate the roles?
scribe: we doing a comprehensive check to see that all the states
are explicitly spelled out
DanC: It would help me to see some tests
<DanC> I read http://hsivonen.iki.fi/aria-html5-bis/
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/aria-html5-bis/
<DanC> Text last updated: 2008-03-31 by Henri Sivonen
<Cathead> Cathead is joshue
<oedipus> Public PF comments list:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2008Jan
Mar/
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2008JanMar/
DanC: has anybody looked at Henri's posting?
... oedipus, can you look at Henri's doc now?
PIon: appears to have a list of roles that are not supported
<anne> Henri's ARIA post made sense to me. I haven't been deeply
involved in ARIA semantics though.
<anne> I was mostly concerned with ARIA syntax and that seems to be
a resolved thingie now.
<DanC> stuff from cooper to the TAG
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Apr/0006.html ->
http://www.w3.org/2008/03/aria-implementation
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Apr/0006.html
http://www.w3.org/2008/03/aria-implementation
DanC: MichaelCooper sent that yesterday
... Noah Mendelsohn replied
... I'm trying to find out how close we are to closing this issue
... my goal it to determine what test cases we have
oedipus: our original proposal was that we preferred native features
in HTML over adding them using ARIA
... I think there is some basic understanding of what we're trying
to do with ARIA
... [mention of example of math]
... ARIA 1.0 is about repairing what we have today
... but the eventual migration is that we hope that in future, many
of these ARIA roles and landmarks will become a native part of the
HTML markup language
shepazu: I think we can cover background on ARIA outside of this
telcon
... we can have a separate call about this perhaps
oedipus: [mentions posting from jgraham as indicating that ARIA
roadmap/plans might not be well understood by all]
... there are tests on the ESW wiki
shepazu: this stuff is actually working in Firefox..
oedipus: we can't provide tests for HTML5 until we have agreement
with the HTML WG about how to integrate it
<PIon> Is there an example of the use of a "math" role in the ARIA
specification? Does it specify the informative additional markup to
be used?
oedipus: nobody has come to the PF working group with their tests
shepazu: the tests can be proposal-level stuff
... the group can then take a look at those
... you don't have to spec out everything first
DanC: that would help me out a lot
oedipus: that would not be satisfactory
<zcorpan> i'm planning to write some aria-in-html5 tests/demos
soonish, btw
DanC: a test is a file written by somebody who as a notion of what
the expected results are
<anne> Actually, I often start out by writing a test where I'm not
quite sure what the expected results are...
oedipus: we want to take what we've learned and bring it to the
HTML5 WG and have it integrated into HTML5
<zcorpan> a test without a pass condition is a demo
<zcorpan> demos are still good
<DanC> right, I like to have pass conditions too
oedipus: ARIA is on LC-track
<anne> (Well, eventually I know and they'll have a pass condition,
but not initially.)
oedipus: we are looking for more input from zcorpan, hsivonen,
others .. need to them to come to the PF group to speak with us
... meeting in the public space
... we did something similar with math
... we have e-mail discussions but communication breaks down
... [having a telcon discussion would help with that issue]
... we want things like ARIA overlays to not be necessary in HTML5
[UAs]
... targets for current ARIA is legacy browsers
... for 1.0 we are restricted by current implementations
<DanC> (is the "no UA changes required" constraint on ARIA 1.0
documented?)
<oedipus> GJR: current and legacy browsers
shepazu: so what you want to discuss is ARIA 1.1 + HTML5
<Cathead> The way current AT works is ARIA not more dependent on how
the browser deals with ARIA code rather than the AT itself?
DanC: so, OK, I'm hearing that the communication is not going well
<DanC> close ACTION-11
<DanC> close ACTION-11
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-11 Show how <div aria="something"> works with
URI based extensibility closed
ChrisWilson: I'll be on vacation next week and the following week
ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml
<DanC> .
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/open?sort=product
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/open?sort=product
DanC: issue-37.. SVG/MathML should be a requirements issue, not a
spec issue
action-29?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-29 -- Dan Connolly to follow up on the idea of
a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring --
due 2008-05-01 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/29
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/29
ChrisWilson: I think integrating other schema into HTML is a good
thing, if for no other reason that it allows us to keep our own
schema more targeted
... we have had a mechanism in IE for doing something like this for
some time now
shepazu: curious about IE's xml element
<DanC> (pointer to ext element proposal, please)
shepazu: my proposal is for a "point of extensibility"
<shepazu>
http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Extensions#Proposal_2:_Extensibility
_Element
http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Extensions#Proposal_2:_Extensibility_Element
shepazu: I think the HTML WG should not attempt to change the
semantics or syntax of other languages
PIon: I'm here because I think the matter is a spec issue
... math should be integrated for sure
... the Math WG is very willing to discuss this
... and the last week or show has shown some very useful discussion
about this
... I think you have a good chance by working with some of the
people who've been trying to get this done now for years
... and we are certainly willing to discuss this
Julian: I agree the extensibility question is general is one of the
must interesting things that HTML5 should try to solve
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note a possible broader issue that
svg/mathml and to ask patrick about how long it's likely to take to
settle on a good design, and explore more refined
DanC: I sense a lack of consensus about whether there is a need for
a general extensibility in HTML
shepazu: my proposal is not for a general
... completely "generic" extensibility mechanism
<PIon> q If there's a more general solution then it should encompass
SVG and MathML as candidates.
DanC: the design space around this looks big
... PIon, how long should this discussion take?
PIon: you can't expect consensus to emerge in 3 weeks, but perhaps
in 3 months
<ChrisWilson> My point is that interoperability is important 1
<ChrisWilson> whoops
PIon: from our side, we are working on MathML 3.0, and we are still
willing to make changes
... so it desirable to try to get this nailed down pretty early,
while both groups are still in a position to make changes
<Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to respond to shepazu's xml element
comment
<anne> Do we have 90min telcons? If so, I'll dial in
ChrisWilson: shepazu, you were asking about the idea of how the
extensibility point idea would [work with/map to] the IE xml element
<anne> (the agenda doesn't say)
anne - we will be on for another 30 minutes, yeah
ChrisWilson: it ends up in _a_ tree, but not _the_ tree
... there are challenges about the programming model
... stylesheets don't work across the boundary
... for example
<Cathead> For the record issue 32 (missing alt) is currently being
worked on my myself, Laura C, Steve F and Gez Lemon.
ChrisWilson: you need to remember that the parser does some specific
things today
... e.g. our parser fires off "speculative image downloads"
... perception of performance would suffer
<DanC> ACTION: ChrisWilson respond to extensibility discussion
[recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-57 - Respond to extensibility
discussion [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-04-10].
<DanC> DS: among those participating in the thread, only hickson
seems opposed to using one of <ext-like> or <svg>/<mathml>.
<DanC> Anne: how many browser builders have participated?
<DanC> DS: mjs
anne: [notes that some important stakeholders have not contributed
to the discussion thus far, so perhaps it is premature to draw
conclusions from any perceived current consensus]
<anne> I can't find Maciej's e-mail in the list
<DanC> shepazu, can you help anne find it?
<anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/
Julian: lots of people said they don't want the HTML parser to get
further complicated by special-casing for large numbers of new
elements
<shepazu> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080401#l-441
http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080401#l-441
<shepazu> it wasn't on the list, it was on IRC
<Laura> Cathead, Missing alt is action 54
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54, issue 31
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31.
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31.
DanC: meeting adjourned
--
Michael(tm) Smith
http://people.w3.org/mike/
http://sideshowbarker.net/
Received on Thursday, 3 April 2008 17:31:30 UTC