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minutes of HTML WG f2f 2011-11-03

From: Michael[tm] Smith <mike@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 09:16:51 +0900
To: public-html-wg-announce@w3.org
Message-ID: <20111104001650.GA20611@sideshowbarker>
http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html

Agenda

  http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2011_Agenda#Thursday.2C_3_November_2011

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Intro
         2. Suggested topics for discussion
         3. the <time> element
         4. Web & TV
         5. HTML Decision Policy report
         6. test suite status report
         7. Change Proposal status
         8. Schedule status (AC report)
         9. Schedule status (from the chairs' report to the AC)
        10. Last Week in HTML5
        11. Teleconferences
     * Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

Intro

   paulc: will be doing things un-conference style
   ... I propose we meet 9 to 5 both days

   [discussing room logistics]

   paulc: MikeSmith and others will need to be at the AC meeting from
   10:45 to 11:15
   ... propose we have the joint meeting with the Web and TV IG after
   lunch today
   ... several people have traveled to TPAC for the Web and TV meeting
   ... we will plan 1 hour for that session

   <pimpbot> changes: sam: Correct link to issue 174 change proposal
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Nov
   /0016.html>

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Nov/0016.html

   paulc: we are not planning to have a phone bridge
   ... can skype people in

   [doing self-intros around the room]

Suggested topics for discussion

   tantek: <time> element

   james_graham: practical test-writing session

   paulc: Test Writing: Just Do It

   plh: report from Kris Kruger on Testing TF

   giuseppe: Web on TV session

   annevk: report on HTML Decision Policy bar camp session

   karl: Last Week in the HTML WG

   frank: canvas accessibility

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   steve_faulkner: conveying activity to the mailing list; reporting

   <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14176] onerror: If the script is not
   same-origin, window.onerror should be invoked with arguments
   ("Script error.", "", 0)
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0228.html> 4** [Bug 14177] onerror: If the script is not
   same-origin, window.onerror should be invoked with arguments
   ("Script error.", "", 0)
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0227.html> 4** [Bug 14182] onerror: s

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0228.html
      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0227.html

   kris_kruger: feedback on the test harness

   MikeSmith: HTML.next

   steve: where are we at with change proposals; issue/CP status

   sam: discuss reopen requests at the same time?

   janina: longdesc
   ... discuss the alternatives that have been proposed

   adrianba: status of where we are in the schedule, what the next
   steps are

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   Stevef: <dialog> element
   ... <hgroup> element

   annevk: maybe the lack of technical discussions being proposed
   indicates that we're done

   peter: URI/IRI

   paulc: thanks tantek (yesterday's bar camp)

   tantek: <time> element was recently dropped from the spec; goal of
   this session would be to gather interested parties to write a change
   proposal

   james_graham: test-writing session: If you don't know how to write
   test cases, we'll teach you

   krisk: 1 full hour for test-suite report

   plh: people want to comment on the decision policy rather than hear
   a summary of it

   <tantek> karlpro just denied being Mr. Last Week

   <karl> Last Week/Month in Open Web Techno
   http://www.w3.org/QA/archive/open_web/

      http://www.w3.org/QA/archive/open_web/

   <pimpbot> Title: Open Web - W3C Blog - Category Archives (at
   www.w3.org)

   karl: I've been writing a weekly report on the HTML WG; I would like
   to hear suggestions on how to improve it

   <karl> there is also the one written by anne

   <karl> on whatwg blog

   richardschwerdtfe: we have been discussing hit testing
   ... for canvas
   ... get the bounds of objects in fallback content
   ... getting path info

   Stevef: activity is occurring in isolated bug reports, difficult to
   follow it all

   MichaelC: would it be appropriate to consider that a "project
   management" topic?

   james_graham: discussion about the test harness with Mozilla folks
   can take place outside the f2f

   Stevef: there are quite a few issues that are sitting on the chairs'
   desk; would like to know what's happening with them

   cynthia: a11y API working session
   ... would be helpful to make sure we have someone with a Mac at that
   session

   11 people for <time> session

   11 people for writing test cases

   9 people for HTML Decision Policy bar-camp session

   14 for reporting on WG activity

   15 for canvas accessibily

   18 for HTML.next

   7 for CP/Issue status

   6 for longdesc

   6 for dialog element

   7 for hgroup

   4 for issue-56 URI/IRI discussion

   2 for a11y API mappings discussion

   11 for schedule, status, next steps

   <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 12547] <video> MEDIA CONTROLLER requires
   readyState for grouped multitrack
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0234.html> 4** [Bug 13995] <track> Don't check Content-Type for
   <track>
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0233.html> 4** [Bug 11984] Simplify <video> for implementors and
   authors by ignoring the Content-Type HTTP header
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/pu

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0234.html
      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0233.html
      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/pu

   A. WG status

   B. HTML.Next

   C. Canvas accessibility

   D. Web and TV

   E. <time> element

   F. Testing HTML

   G. Issue discussion

   <anne> maybe someone should connect a computer to the screen upfront
   and type out the schedule?

   <anne> would be more accessible too

   <tantek> to be clear, <time> session is about a change proposal to
   add <time>, as defined in the spec and inclusive of additional
   granularity with rough consensus as documented here:
   http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time#Date_granularity

      http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time#Date_granularity

   <pimpbot> Title: Time element - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)

   H. a11y API mapping

   [working on schedule / time slots]

   <myakura> just a placeholder:
   http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2011_Agenda

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2011_Agenda

   <pimpbot> Title: TPAC 2011 Agenda - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)

   <krisk> room claps for krisk

   <scribe> scribe: krisk

   Canvas Accessibility Session

   franko: Solution for providing canvas accessibilty using 'sub dom'
   ... canvas UI's exist that have multiple UI elements
   ... screenreaders have no solution to track focus on each element

   rich: It
   ... not just about screenreaders it's also for magnifiers

   shelly: keyboard users also need to see the see focus rects

   franko: context.setElementPath is used to set an area

   <pimpbot> Title: TPAC 2011 Agenda - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)

   franko: call takes an element param, which events can be set to the
   'sub dom'

   <pimpbot> changes: hixie: compat changes for <textarea>.value and
   .textLength (whatwg r6815)
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Nov
   /0017.html>

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Nov/0017.html

   anne: given we are going to add path objects at somepoint in the
   future
   ... ...wouldn't it be better to use path objects for this problem

   rich: calrification on anne's suggest

   anne: it's just re-usesable path objects

   msj: in many common 2d systems you'll want to re-use paths

   mjs: not clear that this use case will have this ability

   franko: we should have a longer discussion about this
   ... we don't want to store a bitmap, rather a vectorize

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   franko: Next part is about hittesting
   ... want to make hittesting support easier of the author

   <plh> --> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011 HTML WG TPAC
   2011 agenda

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011

   <pimpbot> Title: TPAC2011 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)

   franko: use case is a single click (checkbox), or immediate action
   (button)
   ... attribute 'hittest' would solve this

   mjs: why would you use the x and y?

   rich: you won't lose the x and y?

   mjs: seems simpler to always to hittesting and just pass the
   information through

   rich: Anne are you asking to place the hittesting back on the canvas
   element?

   Anne: Pointer events should solve this - when you click on an
   element you should be able to send events to sub elements

   <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13983] WF2: It seems like textarea's raw
   value should always normalize newlines to \n
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0241.html> 4** [Bug 14260] <track> "text tracks ready" and
   HTMLMediaElement.readyState
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0240.html> 4** [Bug 13983] WF2: It seems like textarea's raw
   value should always normalize newlines to \n
   <11http://lists.w3.org/

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0241.html
      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0240.html
      http://lists.w3.org/

   mjs: pointer events don't work in this case, you would need to
   re-target the events

   rich: are you supportive of this?

   mjs: I have just seen this proposal - though initially it seems to
   only need the one mode to satisfy the use case

   rich: shows the first idea for setPathForElement from draft spec

   * if someone can drop a link to the draft spec for this that would
   be super

   rich: All the events get passed like a pointer event

   shelly: why the z-index?

   rich: explains why z-index is needed to NOT set focus to a
   background object

   mjs: it's not clear that z-index will work

   franko: simalar to how last draw wins, setpath would do the same

   shelly: seems much simpler to have last draw win
   ... due to other bugs

   anne: not sure how element fits into this

   franko: the elements in a subdom have not size or position
   ... in IE9 you can give elements postion and size that map to canvas
   that then will get pickd up by a screenreader

   rich: you can also have the keyboard and mouse handlers on the same
   element

   anne: this is only accessibility right? not css om?

   franko: correct
   ... we have some more work to do onthis draft, though do we think
   this is the right direction to solve canvas accessibility?

   rich: jonas (mozilla) suggest a scroll into view, does that make
   sense?

   anne: yes..

   rich: do we need to add this to this draft proposal?
   ... I could use some help on this from you anne

   anne: yes...

   rich: now on to focus ring...
   ... Please take a peek at Focus management...

   drawSystemFocusRing/drawCustomFocusRing

   rich: mjs can you take a peek at this?
   ... this allows the system to do the right thing...
   ... customfocusring can be used to by magnifiers

   mjs: it's not totally clear to me

   rich: we have one function before, now we have two
   ... mjs do you see the subtle diff, I have two points of feedback

   mjs: one issue, if you used a bitmap or from another canvas to
   create a custom focus ring
   ... next issue, you could use a opacity and end up not drawing a
   focus ring...
   ... but it defeats the purpose of path drawing...
   ... it also seems that these two methods are not needed

   <anne> It seems scrollPathIntoView() is already covered:
   http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-
   canvas-element.html#dom-context-2d-scrollpathintoview

      http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#dom-context-2d-scrollpathintoview

   <pimpbot> Title: 4.8.11 The canvas element HTML Standard (at
   www.whatwg.org)

   mjs: how can we address the issue when the author draws a focus ring
   that doesn't match the magnifier
   ... the least path of resistance is to to auto set focus ring

   rich: it may not be critical to have path for everything

   franko: seems that this would make it easier for dev, if a UA would
   autodraw focus ring

   rich: seems like you want to have a system foucs ring (to get system
   focus ring defaults)

   mjs: my suggestion is that these focus ring calls, calling these on
   the path would seem to work simalar to css outline
   ... you need to deal with repainting when focus goes away..
   ... you don't want to cache this...
   ... normally this done by a dirty rect that is then repainted
   ... a UA can't do this correctly when other drawing has occured

   shelly: did we solve this with the set path?

   mjs: no

   franko: doesn't seem that we are optimizing for the main use case

   mjs: you want to make this general and not use this if they can't
   get focus rings correct they will do their own focus ring painting
   ... which then will break magnifiers
   ... if you don't want to handle this complexity then you need to
   just use normal elements

   <pimpbot> planet: Tantek: "But then if we do not ever make <time>,
   how can we ever have <time>?" #Merovingian #HTML5 #TPAC #TPAC2011
   <11http://tantek.com/2011/307/t3/make-time-have-time-merovingian
   -html5-tpac-tpac2011> 4** Tantek: proposed a "<time> element"
   session for the HTML Working Group meeting. #TPAC #HTML5
   irc://irc.w3.org:6665/html-wg
   <11http://tantek.com/2011/307/t2/proposed-time-element-session-h
   tml-group-tpac-html5>

      http://tantek.com/2011/307/t3/make-time-have-time-merovingian-html5-tpac-tpac2011
      http://tantek.com/2011/307/t2/proposed-time-element-session-html-group-tpac-html5

   franko: it seems that you could add this to canvas and solve some of
   problems that canvas has today

   <richardschwerdtfe> link to draft proposal for hit testing:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Oct/att
   -0137/clickableregion.html

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Oct/att-0137/clickableregion.html

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML Canvas 2D Context (at lists.w3.org)

   mjs: canvas to canvas is a case that doesn't seem to work with this
   proposal
   ... happy to look at a propsal that would solve this...

   <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14688] New: fhfhgfhgfhgfhgfhgfhgfhgfhg
   giuhgiuhiuhi hbkhikhiuhbi ihbihbjhbjhb
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0243.html> 4** [Bug 12715] When used to include data blocks (as
   opposed to scripts), the data must be embedded inline
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0242.html>

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0243.html
      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0242.html

   franko: let's review what we have now and write up another proposal
   ... I'd like write up how a UA could automatically take care of
   focus ring drawing..

   rich: thanks for the feedback mjs

   mjs: anyother comments about this draft propsal

   alex: seems odd that this is for only certain elements which seems
   weird?
   ... is this for canvas only or any element?

   franko: only canvas

   alex: this is to solve the special case for solving accessibility
   ... which doesn't map to other needs to handle special hit testing

   mjs: this enable to forward hit testing to another sub dom

   alex: this seems to lead to badness where the the logical dom
   doesn't map to what is visually shown

   anne: I think alex makes a good point...once we get 'components'
   then we can solve this disconnect

   mjs: three minutes left - not enough time to discuss this complexity
   ... break time, starting again at 11:30am

   <myakura> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011

   <pimpbot> Title: TPAC2011 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 12547] <video> MEDIA CONTROLLER requires
   readyState for grouped multitrack
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0244.html>

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0244.html

   Time Element...

the <time> element

   tantek: let's get started
   ... recently this was drop'd from the space
   ... spec
   ... Potential to add back a more powerful time element
   ... summary add back + more

   <myakura> http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik/time_element

      http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik/time_element

   <pimpbot> Title: User:Tantekelik/time element - W3C Wiki (at
   www.w3.org)

   tantek: for year dates, month days...etc...
   ... v-card4 expanded to include these uses
   ... addition to these obvious ones..two more exists

   time zone and duration

   scribe: lots' of useage...
   ... apps can use this to deal this the lack of timezone context

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   tanket: Ask group - any use cases missed?

   mjs: can we see use cases of each?

   tanket: lets' take year only...
   ... YYYY

   tantek: wikipedia and copyright uses a 'year only', e.g. 1999
   ... year month is used alot on bloging...

   Time element doesn't match HTML5 input types, which is a mismatch

   scribe: another example is credit card dates

   tantek: Month Day - e.g 12-25 (x-mas) or a birthday
   ... duration: use case is it's not possible to differential from a
   time
   ... for example 2:30 is this 2:30pm or a movie that lasts two and a
   half hours
   ... it's implemented by a few others and it seems to work...
   ... since people are using this...
   ... generally do we want more specific or more generic elements?
   ... div is very generic and could be a span or header, group, etc..

   though we have gone down the more specific and added many more
   specific elements that can be created by a div

   anne: not clear why we need this..

   tantek: people incorrectly parse times and get the wrong information

   james: you can still get this wrong...
   ... for example a birthday on a page using a time element, could be
   considered a publishing date

   <karl> performance on querying the DOM? parsing all data elements
   instead of only time?

   tanket: this is not true...

   james: the time element is not going to solve this use case

   mjs: I'd like to jump in and comment

   tantek: the search engine example is a little vague

   mjs: another use case is to search for a date, what happend on
   11/3/2011?
   ... it's possible that search engines could use a time element for
   this use case
   ... not sure if this is a primary use case but, it is a use case

   tantek: I am drawing from example of real use cases for search
   engines

   james: we don't have a location element for example...why not?

   <pimpbot> planet: Tantek: #HTML5 time element discussion
   <time>11:30</time> <time datetime=2011-11-03>today</time>:
   http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011#Day_1
   <11http://tantek.com/2011/307/t5/html5-time-element-discussion-t
   oday>

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011#Day_1
      http://tantek.com/2011/307/t5/html5-time-element-discussion-today

   tantek: we do in geolocation and I encourage you to take a peek at
   these WGs

   james: we're not adding a location element though...

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   tantek: we may...

   mjs: we do have evidence that search engines are doing this
   heuroistically

   <karl> we born with a date, a location and a name

   mjs: which they get wrong, so by adding it s search engines
   ... calrification on james...

   <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14526] WF2: When adding filenames to the
   data set, should there be normalization of decomposed forms?
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0245.html>

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0245.html

   mjs: question...

   james: I'm claiming that time is less useful than something claiming
   it's a heading

   alex: how do we add new elements into html that has good use case
   for searching..
   ... microformats has prove the use and if html doesn't add new
   elements it won't have a future

   tantek: We have highly generalized neeeds and data shows that it's
   has a need
   ... for the time element
   ... we not asking to add new elements for tags that are highly
   specialized (volcano)
   ... we are not adding alot of elements to html, so it's not a
   slippery slope

   mjs: asking for vote to not having time element vs having time
   element

   1 vote to not have it...larger number of people (7) would like to
   have time element

   mjs: asking for data element vs not having data element
   ... it seems that it's clear (not full working group) favor having
   both elements <time> <data>

   hixie: most of these use case are irrelevant
   ... you don't need markup for this..
   ... all of this can be trivial found since they are ISO standards
   and are easily parsed

   <karl> hixie: you don't need markup for publishing data, you need
   markup for consuming data

   hixie: search engines do this today pretty well...except year and
   length
   ... the ambiguity exists for other items...
   ... for example SF - all search engines know this is san fran

   tantek: we can use what people publish to determine what we need
   ... time is being used and the pattern is that others will

   hixie: they build it and it will come is not a good strategy

   tantek: I disagree it's worked well for Microdata

   <tcelik> krisk s/microdata/microformats

   hixie: longdesc is a good example gone wrong

   tantek: why make a special case for year? If lots of people are
   using this then we should promote this to an element
   ... If people are intrested in time, then I'd like to hear their
   specific needs

   kimberly: TV has a use for duration

   mjs: some of these particular specified date don't enable a date()
   object to be created
   ... we have a problem since an api exists to provide a date() object
   from this tag

   tantek: It's a perfectly reasonable request to expect the api to do
   the right thing
   ... doesn't seem like a difficult problem and should be easy to
   reach consensus

   mjs: any other questions?

   alex: what about pre-gregoria and gregoria?

   tantek: I have not seen data to justify adding this support

   alex: I have seen this in history examples

   <anne> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proleptic_Gregorian_calendar

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proleptic_Gregorian_calendar

   tantek: a workaround exists...

   <anne> ^^ article on workaround

   tantek: it we have more data then we can add this support
   ... if you see it we can evaluate it as we gather more data

   mjs: any other comments or time in general?

   group agrees no more issues, meeting is over and we'll meet again
   after lunch at 1:30

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   <karl> agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011

   <pimpbot> Title: TPAC2011 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   <tcelik> FYI re: non-Gregorian proposal/research
   http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element#Calendar_scale

      http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element#Calendar_scale

   <pimpbot> Title: Time element - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)

   <karl> s/Agenda:
   http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2011_Agenda#Thursday.2C_3_No
   vember_2011/Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011/

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2011_Agenda#Thursday.2C_3_November_2011/Agenda:
      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC2011/

   <pimpbot> Title: TPAC 2011 Agenda - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)

   <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14689] New: xml-stylesheet with
   type=text/xsl needs to be handled explicitly
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0246.html>

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0246.html

   <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 14688] fhfhgfhgfhgfhgfhgfhgfhgfhg
   giuhgiuhiuhi hbkhikhiuhbi ihbihbjhbjhb
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0247.html>

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0247.html

   <tcelik> greetings

   <tcelik> rrsagent tcelik is tantek

Web & TV

   <anne> scribe: tcelik

   W3C Media Pipeline TF Requirements

   presentation

   November 1-4, 2011

   Clarke: two task forces

   media task force

   home networking task force

   media *pipeline task force

   … scope of the MPTF is to support commercial grade video in browsers
   or anything that supports HTML

   … set out to develop requirements in that area

   … then identified gaps

   … good news is found very few gaps

   … most use cases adequately supported in HTML or in current
   specification

   … we have some additional areas with ideas for addressing things,
   not yet consensus

   "R1. Combined main + description audio track"

   R1 = requirement one

   … each of these slides have use case, what doesn't work, bugs filed,
   sections in spec, suggested changes

   Clarke: first use-case

   … in US/Canada different from Europe - playing audio tracks

   … US/Canada premixed

   … other countries separate

   … we need to identify premix

   … right now HTML5 appears to only address non-prefix

   … Suggestions:

   … define new category values

   <MikeSmith> bug 13357?

   … main+description

   <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13357
   b.lund, P2, NEW, 13<video>: Additional AudioTrack.kind categories
   are needed to identify tracks where audio descriptions are premixed
   with main dialogue.

      http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13357

   … translation+description

   Mark Vickers, Comcast (MV)

   MV: you could make the category a list

   … such as if you had main video and assigned video

   Paul Cotton (PC) for the record this bug is still marked as new

   … this = bug 13357

   MV: we also reviewed this with the a11y P&F group on Tuesday

   … there was some discussion about that with some people that were
   more expert on this

   Janina: we agree that this is information that needs to be avail to
   the consumer

   … how we achieve it is matter of discussion

   John Foliot (JF)

   … the use case of supporting text descriptions is very real

   … we would support additional kinds

   Janina: you're going to want to know for historical stuff if it is
   premixed

   … can't unmix it

   Frank Olivier: do you think we need these 9 categories only, or
   should we leave it open ended

   … so people can create their own categories

   Clarke: we should ask the a11y group

   JF: when we looked at the values originally, these slipped past us.
   In theory I support multiple / extensible kinds

   <anne> what is wrong with kind=alternative + label=... ?

   … what if we do if down the road we discover a new kind

   MV: There's an example on the slides I wondered about.

   … there's a type for main video

   … and signed video

   … could be delivered separately or together as well.

   Russell: I was going to suggest ...

   Anne: what about using just "alternate/alternative" and a label?

   Janina: you need to distinguish two situations

   <dbaron> participants in Web and TV IG:
   https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=46300

      https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=46300

   … a) audio+video premixed, can't undo that

   <dbaron> Participants in HTML WG:
   http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1

      http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1

   <pimpbot> Title: Participants in the HTML Working Group - DBWG, the
   Working Groups Database (at www.w3.org)

   … b) European practice, main audio, and then describe-audio in
   separate channel

   … as long as it is clear to user if it is premixed or not

   Anne: premix just seems like just an alternate

   Maciej: you still need the device that's doing the playback to know
   the nature of the atlernative

   <Kai> help

   … if I said I want audio descriptions for everything, then when the
   format is in a premix format, UA needs to detect that so that it
   doesn't mix them up

   … there might be multiple combined resources in the same track,
   should be able to express that

   JF: Anne, we don't have a labeling mechanism. We only have kind.

   <Hixie> when people say @kind, what are they referring to?

   <anne> Hixie:
   http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-TrackList
   -getKind-categories

      http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-TrackList-getKind-categories

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML Standard (at www.whatwg.org)

   Anne: the preselection mechanism makes sense.

   Mark Watson (MW) Netflix

   … the labels are not useful because you can't automatically intepret
   them, i18n etc.

   <MikeSmith> bug 12544?

   <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12544
   jfoliot, P3, NEW, 13<video> MEDIA CONTROLLER requires track kind for
   in-band tracks

      http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12544

   … captions and subtitles

   … not available in other form, want to be able to signal

   <Hixie> anne: well that's confusing. That's an IDL attribute, not a
   content attribute.

   … when those are available

   Janina: Anne, you need to give us 2 examples

   … how is it marked when the described audio is burned in, and
   separate track

   … one example is not enough

   … need to have two to understand how it works

   Anne: I was already convinced earlier by Maciej

   <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13986] Update vCard vocabulary to RFC6350
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0248.html>

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0248.html

   Janina: this is the uncontroversial one

   PC: as chair, question I ask is, the bug does not include a complete
   change proposal

   … is there anybody in the room that are going to carry this forward
   and write a change proposal

   … I want to know how this is going to work

   <anne> Hixie: hmm yeah

   … editor handles the bug?

   JF: This is obviously supporting an a11y requirement, we could write
   a change proposal. just requesting 2 values at this time.
   ... we could explore extensibility later

   Sam Ruby: Editor processes it by default

   PC: Let's follow process then, have the editor process it

   <anne> Hixie: I guess
   http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-track-ki
   nd is the one

      http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-track-kind

   <MikeSmith> Hixie, are there any new UA conformance requirements
   needed for this? any browser implementation needed?

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML Standard (at www.whatwg.org)

   … I encourage those who have specific proposal to add it to the bug

   <anne> Hixie: but that doesn't make sense

   Bob from Cable Labs: what's being proposed is two new kind
   categories

   … main+description

   … translation+description

   … do we need more?

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   JF: there may be in the future. at this point these 2 have emerged.
   a year from now?

   … 2 ways to approach. 1. let's propose these for the spec now, 2. is
   there an extensibility issue?

   Bob: Let's move forward with these two kinds

   … and parallel with a broader solution

   <anne> Hixie: I guess the streams would expose those kind of values

   JF: if you want to action the a11y tf go ahead

   Giuseppe from Opera

   … kind can be main+description, plus something else

   JF: that goes back to question of extensible

   … sounds like we have extensibility issue here on the table

   … it's a worth while discussion

   Giuseppe: we need specific requests because we are not familiar

   … with the process in this group

   PC: because bugs are first processed by the editor
   ... 1. does the bug reflect the discussion here?

   … if it doesn't, add that info to the bug

   … because *that* is what will be taken into consideration

   Hixie: are we talking about the 'kind' attribute on … ?

   JF: The object?

   Hixie: these are very different with different behaviors

   Anne: it's about the object

   Hixie: happy to add to the object

   … only limitation is the formats the UA supports

   … so far I added everything Ogg supports

   … happy to add what H264 supports

   … need documentation on that though first

   … please add a link to the relevant spec in the bug and I'll add it.

   MW: that's a backwards way of thinking about it

   … notion of those not have to do with media containers

   … backwards to wait for the media container people

   … and then copy/paste those into the HTML

   … we don't want to go overboard

   … where there examples that are clearly in use, even not on web

   … we should add it for the web.

   Janina: are you Ian waiting for a user agent on the web to support
   it.

   … we know what we want because we have 30 years of history on this
   in broadcast and broader media distribution

   … we can be fairly confident there aren't going to be different
   things

   … question is how to mark when they've been combined into a single
   track, and how to mark when they're separate tracks

   Clarke: it's clear we need to have bug processed by the editor, and
   we all add any comments to the bug

   … next issue

   " R3. Handling of In-band Tracks"

   <MikeSmith> bug 13358?

   <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13358
   b.lund, P2, NEW, 13<video> also fire a 'change' event at
   VideoTrackList, AudioTrackList, and TextTrackList objects when their
   list of tracks changes

      http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13358

   <MikeSmith> bug 13359?

   <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13359
   b.lund, P2, NEW, 13A way is needed to identify the type of data in a
   track element

      http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13359

   <MikeSmith> bug 14492?

   <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14492
   jan.lindquist, P2, NEW, 13<video> change event when tracks are
   removed

      http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14492

   … use case: Playing in-band multiplexed media streams (e.g.
   broadcast tv, live events and recorded movies) with track elements
   that come and go over time (e.g. secondary audio, subtitles, in
   different languages, application signaling and content ratings>)

   … what doesn't work: application doesn't know type of data tracks or
   when tracks end.

   … submitted bugs: [x] LC1 Bug 13358

   …. [ ] LC1 Bug 13359

   … [ ] Bug 14492

   … sections: 4.8.10.12.2 sourcing in-band text tracks

   … suggested changes:

   … * mapping of in-band tracks nedds to be done in a standard way

   scribe:

   FO: It would be good to do enumeration of all the tracks in the file
   and what their start/end times are

   Hixie: the problem is that you don't know if/when they're going to
   start or end if ever

   <JF> s/nedds to be done/needs to be done

   FO: but if it is not a live stream...

   Clarke: but it is (a live stream)

   Hixie: there appear to be two issues here
   ... 1. multiple inband tracks video and audio tracks that come and
   go

   … I'm trying to better understand why are there so many tracks?

   Clarke: multiple secondary audio tracks, multilingual, application
   signalling

   … one way of dealing for example, something similar to a current
   video channel, you choose to encode it as a continuous stream, every
   time you get an ad you get new tracks

   Hixie: if you go from tv to ad to tv, presumably you have one video,
   one audio stream, one alternate for the other

   Bob: one example is...

   … or go from one program to another, and the translation tracks
   change

   … text tracks that come and go

   … timed text tracks are useful for interactive TV signaling

   … in general over a long period like hours, you would expect to see
   audio tracks show up and go away

   Hixie: for metadata text tracks that makes more sense

   Eric from Apple

   … when you change format, or change characteristics of the audio,
   typically done with different tracks. e.g. main program to ad

   … diff size or scaled, compressed with different format

   Hixie: each ad could be in a new track?

   Eric: yeah

   Hixie: makes sense. I'll fix that.

   Hixie. 2. the other one was the text track. don't fully understand.
   you want the text tracks to fully say what they are?

   Bob: TV applications, e.g. interactive TV app, ad insertion
   opportunity. if those are inband tracks, no way to identify them as
   metadata tracks. no way to identify to scripts that one contains one
   format and another contains another format.

   … one way would be identifying them with a mimetype

   … or other ways

   … idea, expose program description

   … javascript would have enough to look at the tracks and figure out
   which are which

   Hixie: can you reuse label?

   Bob: that's non-standard

   Hixie: we could make it

   Bob: that would be the kind

   Hixie: my concern is that this usecase seems specific to one domain,
   very concerned about adding a feature just for this one domain

   Bob: not sure if domain specific

   Hixie: if you have a normal web page, it has some out of band text
   tracks that are kind equals metadata

   … you're doing it from script

   … so you don't need it

   Bob: this is an inband track problem
   ... they're not limited to...

   Hixie: that track doesn't have label right?

   Bob: depends on media format

   … Ogg or Webm has an attribute where you can specify a human
   readable string for the channel which would logically go into the
   label

   … some tracks have labels, some done

   Hixie: I'll have to look at that more closely. That doesn't help me
   understand the problem.

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   PC: Hixie, any other questions?

   Hixie: two issue I asked about are enough

   MV: it would be useful to thru the mapping spec

   Hixie: A link to that would be very useful in the bug

   MV: this is the mapping spec

   "Mapping from MPEG-2 Transport to HTML5"

   <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Attempt to update to the latest vCard spec
   (whatwg r6816)
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Nov
   /0018.html>

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2011Nov/0018.html

   Hixie: I don't think I've seen that.

   Bob: it's not on a wiki

   PC: can we post it now

   Hixie: you can attach it to the bug

   … that would be great

   Clarke: are there any opinions about whether this mapping
   specification you want to refer to separately or W3C would want to
   maintain?

   Adrian of Microsoft: short answer yes

   … I suggest sending it to the list

   … maybe posting it somewhere and sending a pointer

   … have people on the mailing list discuss it

   Clarke: ok let's move to the next one

   "R7. Additional Media Paramters"

   … this is the more controversial one potentially

   <MikeSmith> issue-179

   … hopefully less controversial with how we're approaching it

   <MikeSmith> issue-179?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-179 -- {audio,video} require param child (or
   equivalent) -- open

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/179

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/179

   <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-179: {audio,video} require param child (or
   equivalent) - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

   … Use case: Playing adaptive rate video via video element.

   <MikeSmith> bug 13333?

   <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13333
   glenn, P2, RESOLVED WONTFIX, 13audio, video (and source) elements
   require param children or equivalent

      http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13333

   … Currently deployed object element adaptive rate video players
   allow application control of adaptive play-out.

   <MikeSmith> bug 13625?

   <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13625
   b.lund, P2, NEW, 13There is no way to pass audio and video content
   metadata to the user agent that is required in some cases for
   playback.

      http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13625

   … Common parameters or other media should also be considered.

   … what doesn't work: HTML5 spec has no API to control adaptive video

   Clarke: one idea suggested in #htmlav club meeting yesterday was
   need to come up with specific parameters to be passed

   … we don't think there is a need for new functionality to HTML, but
   perhaps additional errors for more specificity, or other events

   … for communication to media elements

   MV: on this and the next few bugs, issue 179 is mentioned

   … 179 proposed a general parm mechanism

   … discussion said to propose specific parameters

   … so next few are proposing specific parameters

   … but no one is against a generic param mechanism

   Anne: could you clarify what you mean by passing data to the media
   elements.

   ?

   … adaptive streaming sounds more like a protocol issue more than
   what media element should handle

   Clarke: there are certain parameters that would be useful to media
   general problems

   … general idea of passing params is helpful e.g. provide an
   experience where people watching get best experience, to know the
   bandwidth

   Anne: where do you pass params to, who gets them, uses them

   ?

   scribe:

   Anne: I've heard two proposals so far

   … 1 is to let protocol solve it

   … UA implements protocol, server does too, they negotiate
   quality/bitrate

   … 2 is where page has open with server, and gets passed bytes over
   that connection where they implement the protocol at the application
   level and pass blobs to the video element that would allow this sort
   of thing

   … at this stage it is inactionable

   … need more concrete proposal

   <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13359] A way is needed to identify the type
   of data in a track element
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0253.html> 4** [Bug 14690] New: <a> should be allowed as a child
   of <dl> Current browsers allow this already. A semantic use case is
   file downlads <dl><a
   href="filename1.pdf"><dt>Filename</dt><dd>description of
   file</dd><dd>filetype</dd></a>etc...</dl>.
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0253.html
      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html

   Adrian: What Mark said was, the idea of that request everybody now
   understands is a good one. There's some work to do to figure out
   that concrete suggestion.

   … should happen somewhere, think it should happen in HTML Working
   Group

   PC: current status of issue 179 that asks for the generic PARAM
   parameter

   … we have a counter change proposal to not do that

   PC: we haven't had the original change proposal withdrawn

   … still time for counter proposals

   PC: I want to know what are we going to know with 179.

   Adrian: I'll withdraw my overgeneralization of everybody.

   … maybe almost everybody agrees now

   … I suspect that at end of issue 179 there will be consensus for not
   making a change

   … because we have a better understanding how to move forward.

   MV: re 179, I spoke with Glenn Adams. he is still interested in
   pursuing that. he is not able to be here.
   ... the interest group does not have unified support for that bug

   … we are coming in with Sylvia alternative proposal

   … to discuss specific parameters

   … the whatwg link in this slide goes to a survey/analysis of
   adaptive parameters across a wide variety of systems

   PC: I believe we have 2 change proposals.

   … we haven't yet called for counters.

   … normally that runs 30 days

   … ended on Oct 28

   <pimpbot> Title: Error (at wiki.whatwg.org)

   … next automatic step would be to evaluate whether we call for
   counter proposals

   … would be good to hear from as many WG members where they stand on
   this.

   (silence)

   Hixie: When Henry rejected the bug, he rejected the generic concept

   … specific issues would be considered.

   PC: new related bugs would be treated as subtypes of this bug and
   treated as last call

   … e.g. we have cases where we as we refine the question in a bug,
   the chairs are willing to enter into a consideration that subtype
   bugs are then treated as ontime last call bugs.

   … reach out to us and ask if you have any questions about that and
   have a dialog with us.

   Clarke: R7 was about passing params

   … R8 is about getting feedback

   … R10 and R11 we consider parallel issues

   … specifically related to content protection

   … "R111. Content Protection Feedback and Errors"

   … we the people who know the specific events, errors, params need to
   be passed and come to a consensus of a subset of these that we would
   propose as changes.

   MW: currently the errors on the media element are rather limited

   … I'd like to learn more about the rational for that

   … reason for more error codes where we have customer service reps

   … trying to fix things

   …. we want web page be able to provide more specific errors

   … to send back

   Hixie: reason limited is baby steps. reason object instead of number
   is to be able to add things later

   … should be slow to add things because they we get too far ahead of
   the implementations

   <arnpro> what do you think about Dart? (google's new)

   … errors have some CORS aspects

   ?? need 10

   Hixie: that's a lot, please prioritize

   Clarke: if there is advice for how to get this into HTML quickly
   that would be great.

   Clarke on R7

   … exposing information on available bit rates, maybe set maximum

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   … exposing and setting parameters for fragment selection

   … playlists want to prefetch segments to play things seamlessly

   … in R8

   … common media error

   … additional events/info

   … DNS failure, TCP failure, TLS failure

   … stats such as packet drop rate

   … changes in the stream of events

   MV: this is where the referenced WHatWG wiki is good to look at

   Clarke: R150

   R10

   … getting DRM system information

   … exchange DRM related messages

   … ref: OIPF DAE specification

   … R11. Content Protection Feedback and Errors

   Tantek: are the slides in the respective bugs?

   Clarke no but they could be

   ACTION Clarke add contents from the slides of the presentation to
   each specific bug

   <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Clarke

   MW: Different conclusions though, might be components exposed
   through the web interface, pass through for parameters is different
   than webarch that hides platform/device specific things

   … re: content protection

   … some devices have content protection, some dont'

   … my question to the group is: is it acceptable to introduce this
   capability to the web platform (pass thru), or some other strategy?

   Anne: the last time this was discussed on WHATWG list

   … least controversial suggestion was API feed bits into the video
   stream

   … DRM would be implemented at the application level

   MW: you can't implement the DRM in the JS

   … needs to be implemented in trusted execution environment

   <karl> there is nothing secure in life. useless pun.

   MW: objective of DRM is not to make it impossible but difficult, for
   some well defined values of difficult

   … need these capabilities in the trusted computing layers

   … below the video element

   Anne: we are already at the place where you have H264 decoding in JS

   … I was just stating the last thing that was discussed on this topic
   that had some traction beyond we don't want to go there.

   John Simmons of Microsoft: Echoing what Mark said.

   … key takeaway

   … DRM systems are going to be used on video delivered to devices

   … people who develop DRM understand those constraints

   … e.g. can't implement in JS

   … key question is whether HTML will be able to accomodate DRM
   protected content

   … or continue like silos today

   … which prevent large scale growth of internet television that we'd
   like to see

   MV: related to 179

   … there are these two proposals

   … 1. for parm

   … 2. not use it

   … data- and x- are supposed to be prohibited from use

   … but no change proposal says use those

   … didn't make sense

   … details are in the issue 179 two alternate proposals

   … can anyone comment?

   PC: project change proposal?
   ... original change proposal

   MV: just above the blue box

   … furthermore the data-* mechanism etc.

   … can't be used

   … but then in Sylvia's counter proposals says to use them.

   … does the quoted text need clarification

   … or is it just a misunderstanding?

   Hixie: the data-* attributes are intended to only be used by scripts
   in the page, not by the user agent

   … if you have something the user agents would use, then either we
   would add it to the language

   … or if it was experimental we would use x-* syntax

   … e.g. webkit has x-webkit-*

   Adrien: the misunderstanding was how x- attribute might be used on
   the way to standardization

   … e.g. like it's done with vendor prefixing in CSS.

   … in order that those experimental implementations don't drive
   actual content, we use a vendor prefix

   … the proposed standard doesn't have a vendor prefix

   … the vendor prefixes are a temporary measure to experiment while
   standard is being agreed.

   MV: concrete case is UPnP

   … available spec

   … but no support for it

   … slightly different model UPnP video vs. regulary HTML video access

   … a separate group UPnP could publish use x-upnp-* params, and
   encourage others to

   Hixie: if they're writing an actual standard they wouldn't use x-

   … just upnp-

   MV: so ok for them to just use upnp- ?

   Hixie: I wouldn't recommend it, would prefer to come to the group

   MV: I agree primary idea is bring these in

   bug 13625 (13635?) also tracks separate attribute

   <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13625
   b.lund, P2, NEW, 13There is no way to pass audio and video content
   metadata to the user agent that is required in some cases for
   playback.

      http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13625

   PC: I want to point people to the conformance clause in HTML5
   ... It says you can conform by pointing to HTML5 and other set of
   additional specifications

   … a vertical industry could say you conform to HTML5 and this other
   specification

   … too many people believe you want to force everything into the
   HTML5 spec.

   … I want to support Ian's view that if something is generic we want
   that discussion and get that in

   … or at least know about it

   … so that we can detect when something becomes emergently generic

   Hixie: I agree

   … the conformance section really it says what's been true of any
   spec

   MW: I wouldn't encourage people to write extensions. we have an
   interest in strongly discouraging separate extension. we don't want
   fragmentation.

   … if you look at OIPF and HDTV you have 100s of 1000s of pages of
   stuff

   … a uniform platform, that should be our goal

   Hixie: in practice as people do start writing specs that start
   extending HTML in that way, it probably means we failed, but in
   reality it might happen anyway

   PC: time check

   … have gone through all the material

   … several suggestions made

   … including Tantek's that all this slide material be added to the
   associated bugs

   <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13357] <video>: Additional AudioTrack.kind
   categories are needed to identify tracks where audio descriptions
   are premixed with main dialogue.
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0262.html> 4** [Bug 13239] Add support for in-page dialogs
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0261.html> 4** [Bug 12409] WF3: Automatic capitalization in
   input fields <11http://lists.w3.org/Archi

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0262.html
      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0261.html
      http://lists.w3.org/Archi

   … have we covered everything that the interest group wanted to
   cover?

   … process discussion can be taken offline over coffee

   … chairs are open to taking that stuff orally or over email

   MV: two things

   … 1. one more residue, that we're not bringing. as FYI: need for a
   service discovery API

   … to allow discover of things thru like zeroconf and UPnP

   … being discussed at DAP group

   … we didn't bring it to this group because it is a whole new thingl

   … 2. we studied dozens and dozens of use-cases

   … this is the residue that came out

   … testament to the spec, many applications worked just fine with the
   spec

   …. other than these few areas

   … it's all right on track

   … a lot of verification

   … there was a huge amount of positive work that we're not showing
   you because it all worked.

   PC: any last comments?

   … thanks to the chairs of the IG for approaching the chairs of the
   HTML WG so early

   … gave us a chance to coordinate chairs

   … WG meeting is now recessed until 15:30-0700

   <br type=coffee/>

   <anne> wait

   <anne> is the value "coffee/"

   <anne> or "coffee"

   anne - ask the parser ;)

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13359] A way is needed to identify the type
   of data in a track element
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0264.html> 4** [Bug 13550] type table in 4.10.7 should indicate
   control type changes based on list attribute
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0263.html> 4** [Bug 14691] <a> should be allowed as a child of
   <dl> Current browsers allow this already. A semantic use cas

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0264.html
      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0263.html

   <hober> ScribeNick: hober

   rubys: this is the last session of the day

HTML Decision Policy report

   paulc: these slides are from the plenary day session
   ... I'll go through the slides and replay some of the Q&A that we
   had yesterday and this morning in the AC meeting
   ... we have bugs & issues; editor responsible for bugs, escalation
   procedure for others that produces issues
   ... chairs find consensus through the path described in the decision
   policy
   ... v2 of the policy endorsed by the wg this summer
   ... chairs look at the reactions that change proposals get
   ... [description of Enhanced Change Control]
   ... e.g. the <time> element discussion earlier, the chairs have
   requested a revert; issue will be turned into multiple proposed
   changes
   ... [paul displays & describes diagram of the decision process
   algorithm]
   ... feedback from ac meeting: decision policy isn't approachable for
   new people
   ... chairs have informally discussed, working up a simple faq would
   help

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   paulc: the process is detailed because the chairs don't want there
   to be any confusion
   ... issues can sometimes be reopened
   ... when writing up a decision the chairs describe the sorts of
   triggers that could get the issue reopened
   ... interested in new information that wasn't part of the original
   discussion
   ... Formal Objections are the escape valve of the w3c process
   ... we have a webpage that lists our formal objections thus far
   ... e.g. the polyglot document claims to be normative, there is an
   FO on this
   ... received a comment that, given the importance of the decision
   policy, changing it is akin to rechartering
   ... there is a bugilla component on the policy; we welcome bugs
   ... maciej processed as many bugs as possible between v1 and v2 of
   the policy
   ... decision policy isn't an edict from the chairs; we welcome
   feedback on it
   ... another comment: some find the wg to be a hostile place, and
   that the way editors process bugs is unusual
   ... the chairs work very hard to make this a level playing field in
   which people feel that they can present arguments
   ... one person complained that they couldn't unsubscribe from the
   mailing list
   ... dsinger & others asked how is someone supposed to be able to
   watch all of the many changes
   ... paul stepped through the <time> element changes, showing the
   granularity of spec change; the editors are really good about
   matching changes to specific bugs
   ... somewhat difficult to see what changed in the w3c document
   because the svn commits are on the whatwg side

   <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13570] why does input type=color support
   autocomplete?
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0271.html> 4** [Bug 13550] type table in 4.10.7 should indicate
   control type changes based on list attribute
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0270.html> 4** [Bug 13558] input type=email should support
   friendly names
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0271.html
      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0270.html
      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011

   paulc: not many contentious changes slip through
   ... [discusses <time> element as an example]
   ... had questions over coffee about the relationship with the
   whatwg, about the wg size, etc

test suite status report

   The slides: http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTMLWG-DP/

      http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTMLWG-DP/

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Decision Policy (at www.w3.org)

   krisk: lots of growth over last year in terms of submitted tests
   ... we're pretty far ahead relative to other groups
   ... [runs through slide describing the various sorts of tests in the
   suite already]

   <paulc> Decision Policy slides:
   http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTMLWG-DP/#%281%29

      http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTMLWG-DP/#%281%29

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Decision Policy (at www.w3.org)

   krisk: over 106K submitted tests
   ... participation in tf is up since last tpac
   ... public-html-testsuite@w3.org is the list; much less traffic than
   the main list
   ... please send jgraham feedback on the test harness
   ... [thanks to contributors]
   ... tf meets biweekly on irc

Change Proposal status

   stevef: there are a number of issues that are waiting for the chairs
   to evaluate the CPs
   ... when will the evaulations occur?

   janina: at least one issue from pf

   <anne> http://intertwingly.net/tmp/wgstatus.html

      http://intertwingly.net/tmp/wgstatus.html

   paulc: [describes how issue status page is organized]

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Status (at intertwingly.net)

   <anne> ^^ displayed on screen

   rubys: we have reviewed one of the CPs of ISSUE-30, there are two
   others, one is being reviewed

   paulc: chairs started to give themselves action items for this
   review in the last 3 or 4 weeks
   ... all 3 of the chairs have been very busy
   ... we have to start to move to make the deadline dates in our
   timeline

   rubys: we're prioritizing ISSUE-30

   paulc: we've moved into a mode of reviewing CPs so that the
   resultant surveys will be better

   rubys: e.g. the issue-30 cp we reviewed is much improved after
   incorporating feedback

   janina: pf wants to highlight issue-133

   stevef: there should only be one CP for issue-133

   paulc: there are two

   stevef: one was withdrawn

   rubys: we'll issue a call for consensus

   <tantek> <aside> Hixie, re: search engines know SF is San Francisco,
   but they don't however know MV is Mountain View </aside>

   paulc: we could issue the CfC tonight
   ... & maybe take it off of the discussion list tomorrow

   stevef: is there an overall timeline for these issues?

   paulc: no, but we want to get through them as fast as we can
   ... ~250 open bugs to be processed by 12/31
   ... [overview of early 2012 schedule]
   ... chairs are working to clear the backlog before the end of the
   year

Schedule status (AC report)

   adrianb: there were 2 bugs opened, one against microdata and one
   against rdfa
   ... based on TAG feedback that resulted in the html data tf being
   formed
   ... is there an expectation that that tf will create feedback for
   the wg
   ... if so, when will that happen

   <adrianba> TF -> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Html-data-tf

      http://www.w3.org/wiki/Html-data-tf

   <pimpbot> Title: Html-data-tf - W3C Wiki (at www.w3.org)

   <adrianba> bug 13100?

   <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13100
   mike+html-wg-mailbot, P1, RESOLVED WONTFIX, 13TAG issue on HTML+RDFa
   and Microdata last call drafts

      http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13100

   <adrianba> bug 13101?

   <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13101
   mike, P1, RESOLVED NEEDSINFO, 13TAG issue on HTML+RDFa and Microdata
   last call drafts

      http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13101

   paulc: [checks tag agenda for status of that tf]

   rubys: we will hold that feedback to the same schedule as other
   feedback

   paulc: the editors are required by our schedule to resolve all bugs
   by 12/31

   <tcelik> why are there two bugs for this?

   paulc: the bugs could just be closed if the tf report doesn't come
   in on time

   tcelik: one per component
   ... the bugs could be turned into issues at any time between now and
   1/14

   s/adrianb/adrianba/

   rubys: we will remind the tag of the schedule

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   <scribe> ACTION: paulc to contact the TAG [noah, jeni] to find out
   the status of the html data tf [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-205 - Contact the TAG [noah, jeni] to find
   out the status of the html data tf [on Paul Cotton - due
   2011-11-10].

   tcelik: the bugs are talking about what the w3c should or shouldn't
   do, not what this wg should do

   rubys: we will require concrete change proposals

   tcelik: a possible outcome is the wg could choose to stop publishing
   one of these specs

   rubys: a change proposal could take such a form

   tcelik: couldn't these specs be done in a cg?

   rubys: i don't know of any proposal to stop any of these specs
   ... the bugs suggest merging the specs as one possible outcome

   tcelik: this is at w3c scope, not wg scope

   paulc: noah has asked to come to our meeting tomorrow
   ... we can ask him for status then

Schedule status (from the chairs' report to the AC)

   <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13558] input type=email should support
   friendly names
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0276.html> 4** [Bug 13558] input type=email should support
   friendly names
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0274.html> 4** [Bug 13570] why does input type=color support
   autocomplete?
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0273.html> 4** [Bug 13570]

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0276.html
      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0274.html
      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0273.html

   paulc: we will step through the slides we presented to the AC this
   morning

   MikeSmith: [explains what the AC is]
   ... for 3 or 4 years we've done reports to the AC about the WG's
   status
   ... last 2 presentations that we did focused on what we were doing
   to get to LC
   ... we got to LC roughly on schedule
   ... ended LC round in August
   ... reminded AC we publish several documents, not just the HTML5
   spec

   [applause for MikeSmith's hard work publishing our specs]

   MikeSmith: [list of our publications]
   ... told the AC about the author view of the spec (important to the
   TAG)
   ... Hixie had to make many edits to the spec to make the author view
   possible
   ... [goes through slide describing bug status & stats]

   paulc: the wgstatus page gives you stats in fairly fine granularity
   ... [reads outstanding bug status from wgstatus page]

   MikeSmith: [goes through AC report slides re: last call issues,
   issues awaiting or that have received new information, formal
   objections, etc.]

   <MikeSmith> q

   ??: question for date for when new information is required

   rubys: escalation deadline is 1/14

   <tcelik> hober, slides: http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTML5/

      http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/HTML5/

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Update (at www.w3.org)

   <MikeSmith> s/??/Cynthia_Shelley/

   paulc: you want to add new info as soon as possible
   ... I think the schedule was overly pessimistic
   ... we might come out of last call after the spring ac meeting
   ... an AC rep asked about the relationship between html wg and
   whatwg

   <tcelik> relation of HTML5 to the WHATWG? isn't that an FAQ?

   paulc: another ac rep asked about what the decision policy would
   look like in several years
   ... the question might be better put 'how will work on html.next
   proceed'
   ... jim bell from hp said nice things & complimented chairs/wg/etc

   <anne> tcelik:
   http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#WHATWG_and_the_W3C_HTML_WG

      http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#WHATWG_and_the_W3C_HTML_WG

   rubys: we did get less flattering comment about the approachability
   of the process

   <pimpbot> Title: FAQ - WHATWG Wiki (at wiki.whatwg.org)

Last Week in HTML5

   <tcelik> Thanks Anne - I thought I'd seen that somewhere.

   paulc: sent out draft schedule for tomorrow

   <myakura> Proposed Friday F2F schedule from Paul Cotton on
   2011-11-03 (public-html@w3.org from November 2011)
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Nov/0013.htm
   l

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Nov/0013.html

   <pimpbot> Title: Proposed Friday F2F schedule from Paul Cotton on
   2011-11-03 (public-html@w3.org from November 2011) (at lists.w3.org)

   karl: a few months ago I suggested to Ian Jacobs that I post weekly
   summaries of activity in the html wg on the QA blog

   <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/QA/

      http://www.w3.org/QA/

   <pimpbot> Title: W3C Blog (at www.w3.org)

   karl: following html wg, the bug tracker, whatwg, webapps, etc
   ... not following css or svg
   ... anne from opera is doing something similar on the whatwg blog,
   following whatwg & webapps

   <anne> http://blog.whatwg.org/

      http://blog.whatwg.org/

   <pimpbot> Title: The WHATWG Blog (at blog.whatwg.org)

   karl: thanks to the chairs for well writen decisions with links to
   relevant bugs etc
   ... this blog takes about an afternoon each week
   ... i don't cover everything happening on the open web platform

   <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/QA/archive/open_web/

      http://www.w3.org/QA/archive/open_web/

   <pimpbot> Title: Open Web - W3C Blog - Category Archives (at
   www.w3.org)

   karl: would love to know if this is useful

   cynthia: i find it useful

   ArtB: I read it & anne's as well, both useful

   rubys: lots of cross links between the two

   adrianba: proposal: in the telcon agenda, the chairs could point at
   the most recent post

   <scribe> ACTION: rubys to ensure the weekly telcon agendas contain a
   link to the latest post in karl's series [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-206 - Ensure the weekly telcon agendas
   contain a link to the latest post in karl's series [on Sam Ruby -
   due 2011-11-10].

   stevef: please also post the summaries to public-html

   karl: ok, will post full text & link

   <pimpbot> planet: Tantek: #TPAC2011: iterating on an HTML working
   group change proposal for an enhanced #HTML5 <time> element:
   http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik/time_element
   <11http://tantek.com/2011/307/t7/tpac2011-html-proposal-enhanced
   -html5-time-element>

      http://www.w3.org/wiki/User:Tantekelik/time_element
      http://tantek.com/2011/307/t7/tpac2011-html-proposal-enhanced-html5-time-element

   <hober2> ScribeNick: hober2

   [various requests for subscription options, twitter, rss, etc]

   hadley: could it have its own twitter account?

   karl: yes

   <tcelik> +1 to what James is saying

   jgraham: these posts should have some of the "inside baseball"
   ... developers can't keep up with the email lists

   <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 13558] input type=email should support
   friendly names
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0279.html> 4** [Bug 13392] i18n-ISSUE-72: BOM as preferred
   encoding declaration
   <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011
   Nov/0278.html>

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0279.html
      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2011Nov/0278.html

   <tcelik> +1 to transparency

   rubys: don't want it to be a sleep-inducing sanitized press release

Teleconferences

   cynthia: can we have more topical discussions on the telcon?

   rubys: yes, we have an "other business" section for this

   <karl> ACTION: karl to create a twitter account for the Open Web
   last week [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - karl

   rubys: we've never run over
   ... so we can use that time to help people get caught up with what's
   going on

   richardschwerdtfe: can you get Hixie to call into the telecons?

   rubys: no

   <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG f2f -- 03 Nov 2011 (at www.w3.org)

   rubys: different people have different work styles [etc.]
   ... had a useful f2f discussion with Hixie today

   MikeSmith: Hixie is available on RIC, you can ping him if you have a
   question

   <karl> s/RIC/IRC/

   rubys: we would need to convince him that it would be worth it to
   join the call

   [discussion of timliness of pinging Hixie on IRC]

   mjs: there are people in the wg who are more comfortable with
   different kinds of interactions
   ... some prefer the mailing list, some irc, some telecons

   <tcelik> indeed. this is why I publish my communication preferences:
   http://tantek.com/w/CommunicationProtocols

      http://tantek.com/w/CommunicationProtocols

   <pimpbot> Title: tantek / CommunicationProtocols (at tantek.com)

   mjs: the chairs try to bridge between these different kind of people

   richardschwerdtfe: asked you for a tech review 6 weeks ago

   mjs: it's difficult to schedule a detailed tech review, it needs
   large block of uninteruppted time

   rubys: the schedule has timeouts so that we can proceed even if we
   don't hear back from people

   mjs: the decision policy goes with the cp that draws the weakest
   objections, and i try to make sure that apple's position is stated
   in surveys

   [bits i missed re: the chairs' role in reviewing change proposals]

   rubys: after you submit a proposal, you can still change it

   <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith

   <hober2> richardschwerdtfe: i'm trying to avoid a 11th hour counter
   change proposal

   richardschwerdtfe: we tried to reach Hixie and did didn't get any
   feedback
   ... Charles didn't hear back from him

   sam: You got your response today

   richardschwerdtfe: but we don't want to have to wait 6 weeks next
   time

   mjs: you shouldn't wait six weeks to submit it

   sam: we are ajourned

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: karl to create a twitter account for the Open Web last
   week [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: paulc to contact the TAG [noah, jeni] to find out the
   status of the html data tf [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: rubys to ensure the weekly telcon agendas contain a
   link to the latest post in karl's series [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/11/03-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]

-- 
Michael[tm] Smith
http://people.w3.org/mike/+
Received on Friday, 4 November 2011 00:19:04 UTC

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