RE: {minutes} HTML WG media telecon 2012-12-18 - media source extension bugs and FPWD

Minutes -> http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-html-media-minutes.html

  [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                  HTML Media Task Force Teleconference

18 Dec 2012

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Dec/0027.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-html-media-irc

Attendees

   Present
          ddorwin, pal, Aaron_Colwell, markw, adrianba, paulc,
          johnsim, BobLund, +1.613.287.aaaa, MartinSoukup

   Regrets
   Chair
          Paul Cotton

   Scribe
          Adrian Bateman

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Roll call, introductions and selection of scribe
         2. [6]Previous meeting minutes
        3. [7]Review of action items
         4. [8]Baseline documents and Bugzilla information
         5. [9]Progression to First Public Working Draft
         6. [10][MSE] Homework re: issues in the context of
            upcoming FPWD
         7. [11]Discussion of outstanding bugs
         8. [12]Other Business
         9. [13]Chair and Scribe for next meeting
        10. [14]Adjournment
     * [15]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 18 December 2012

   <scribe> ScribeNick: adrianba

   <scribe> Scribe: Adrian Bateman

Roll call, introductions and selection of scribe

   paulc: done

Previous meeting minutes

   [16]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-html-wg-minutes.html

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-html-wg-minutes.html

   paulc: noted

Review of action items

   paulc: none apply to MSE currently

Baseline documents and Bugzilla information

   [17]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/
   media-source.html

     [17] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html

   paulc: prepared agenda last week - there have been a couple of
   editorial changes since then
   ... changes made to align with pubrules

   Media Source Extension bugs -> [18]http://tinyurl.com/6pdnzej

     [18] http://tinyurl.com/6pdnzej

Progression to First Public Working Draft

   paulc: here i pointed to bug 20253 which aaron created to
   indicate the results of our dec 4 discussion
   ... where we said there were 7 bugs that were desirable to fix
   prior to FPWD
   ... if you look at 20253 it indicates that the following have
   been processed: 17002, 17094, 18960, 18963, and 19531
   ... leaving outstanding 17006, 18962
   ... 17006 is track language and kind
   ... 18962 is allow appending with XHR

   adrianba: those are assigned to me

   paulc: can you give us a status update?

   [19]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20434

     [19] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20434

   adrianba: i filed this new bug which i think is blocking 18962
   ... this deals with making append() async even for ArrayBuffer
   ... details in the bug

   acolwell: i have a concern about changing this late - have to
   think about this
   ... seems like an IE implementation requirement
   ... we've implemented this without
   ... i do like the idea that it makes it consistent between the
   stream and non-stream version

   <MartinSoukup> i believe if the API is going to change, it is
   better to make the change prior to FPWD

   adrianba: of course we could make this sync by blocking but
   we'd prefer not to do that

   acolwell: i need to think about this offline

   paulc: let's pop-up to the fact that adrian made the XHR bug
   dependent on this
   ... and we need to decide how to process the move to FPWD
   ... practical situation is that my plan was to do a CfC in this
   group (might be as simple as doing it on the phone call)
   ... but obviously we need to take a FPWD ready spec to the WG
   and do a CfC inside the WG
   ... that call would normally last a week
   ... the working group is not meeting this week or next week
   ... possibly will meet on jan 3
   ... i proposed that we not meet on dec 20 and dec 27
   ... even if we went forward today, the CfC might have to be for
   3 weeks
   ... i'm reluctant to use one week when it would overlap with
   the holidays
   ... i think we've lost our window of opportunity - i wonder if
   we should give the editors until early january to make progress
   and the do CfC in early january

   acolwell: what is the benefit of doing it in this group first?

   paulc: in some ways i'm being trained by the time i've spent
   monitoring the a11y task force
   ... the a11y tf leadership have always been careful to ensure
   that they have consensus inside that group
   ... it would be foolish to take to the WG and then have someone
   in the TF object
   ... so what maciej was saying is what really matters is what
   the WG says
   ... so we could do this informally in the TF
   ... one possibility would be to look at TF schedule
   ... we could agree that on jan 8 the editors will give us a
   draft FPWD with as many bugs closed as possible and on that
   call, which would normally be a EME call, we would test
   consensus to go to the WG
   ... and then we'd go to the WG at that time
   ... i think that is a strawman that avoids the perception we're
   trying to we're trying to sneak it in
   ... how does that sound?

   acolwell: i'm fine with that plan - can we fix more bugs in
   this time?

   paulc: yes, editors can always add more

   acolwell: i don't want to let more bugs block us getting to
   FPWD

   paulc: understood

[MSE] Homework re: issues in the context of upcoming FPWD

   <johnsim> +1

   pal: i'm not opposed to proceed with regular draft publications
   so we don't fall into the trap of always trying to fix a bug
   and not publishing
   ... so my proposal is to simply add a note in the WD pointing
   to that bug or issue
   ... helping the reader identify areas still under discussion
   ... also trying to encourage readers to provide feedback on
   those issues

   paulc: these are bugs 19673, 20327, 19784, 19676
   ... there are places identified in the spec to point to these
   bugs

   pal: not just limited to these bugs - could be other bugs too

   paulc: looking for the minimum necessary to declare victory -
   want to make you happy
   ... in addition to this i'd like to suggest that the editors
   add a para to the status section that identifies the bugzilla
   component for this draft and a link to the search for
   outstanding bugs
   ... there are examples in other previously published working
   drafts
   ... that will highlight up front that there are outstanding
   bugs
   ... that along with what pal has suggested for his bugs inlined
   into the document will make it very clear
   ... it's like adding a health warning to particular spec
   sections

   acolwell: i'll have to go look to add an example

   adrianba: it's easy to add more to the status section - i can
   help

   paulc: the current html wd includes a paragraph on this

   [reads from html editor's draft]

   paulc: editors should look at how this has been done in the
   past in this WG

   acolwell: i have a concern that a couple of the bugs in the WD
   as a note elevates them to indicate that they will be addressed
   and in my mind not all have a convincing case
   ... i don't think we've discussed enough and i think it would
   be misleading to indicate that these are going to change
   ... not sure what the right balance is

   paulc: the text from pal doesn't say whether it merits
   inclusion or not - just points to the bug

   acolwell: but it's still up for discussion - would rather
   resolve than add text not resolved

   paulc: the HTML5 WD had a way for people to mark bugzilla bugs
   and the editorial process put those bugs into the spec as a
   marker
   ... WG in the past has had a low bar for doing that

   acolwell: ok

   paulc: if the text from pal indicated that this must change
   that would be different - but it's just noting the existence of
   the bug
   ... this is a common W3C procedure
   ... if someone tried to argue that because we mentioned them we
   have to fix them in a particular way i wouldn't accept that

   adrianba: i just wanted to emphasise that this has happened
   before
   ... perhaps we could use ISSUE to explain why only a few bugs
   are in this state

   paulc: i'd rather try to have some technical issues on this
   call and leave this to the editors
   ... anyone have anything else to say on this?
   ... overall plan is to get to CfC by jan 8
   ... acolwell are there specific bugs you'd like to discuss?

Discussion of outstanding bugs

   [20]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19784

     [20] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19784

   timestampOffset with multiplexed Media Segments

   pal: timestampOffset allows the start of a media segment to be
   offset by a value
   ... the issue is that media segments that contain multiplex -
   the audio may start a little earlier
   ... this is often done in DASH, blueray
   ... to support splicing of different streams
   ... the issue is the timestampOffset says you shall start
   playback at the beginning but you always want to splice at the
   video boundary not the audio boundary
   ... but if audio starts earlier then you end up using the audio
   boundary not the video
   ... this is only a problem for multiplexed media

   acolwell: the spec says to resolving the splice on a per stream
   basis
   ... so the splice for each stream is resolved independently

   pal: where exactly in the media segment does the splice happen
   ... does it mean the audio will be offset from the video
   ... original content has audio and video synced but has audio
   start earlier to allow cross-fade splicing

   acolwell: i was assuming the audio frame already in the buffer
   - the cross fade would happen at the splice time?

   pal:
   [21]https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bz7s0dhnv-7HYjhadTktTGhrd2
   M
   ... [describes illustration]

     [21] https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bz7s0dhnv-7HYjhadTktTGhrd2M

   acolwell: the timestamp offset is the value that is added to
   the timestamp in the media, not a reference to the start
   ... it just adds to timestamp values

   pal: i don't think mp4 allows negative offsets

   acolwell: the current spec says for video the splice happens
   where you want it
   ... say frame 1 starts at 33ms you replace frame 4 and move on
   ... for audio the cross-fade would happen between frame 4 of
   original content and frame 1 of new content
   ... and so wherever they overlap a cross-fade would happen
   ... if you don't implement cross-fade then frame 4 would be
   dropped
   ... and if there was a gap silence would be inserted

   pal: i think the key is that even though it is audio/video
   multiplex, the splicing is resolve per stream type
   ... that is key
   ... second, i understand how if the video frame is some offset
   into the segment you can reduce the timestamp offset by a
   similar amount to make sure you have alignment
   ... how do you tell it to start on the video frame?

   acolwell: by the nature of how the html element the first video
   frame will be displayed before playback starts
   ... when it loads it automatically displays first frame

   pal: by construction there is always a sync on the video frame

   acolwell: the first frame is always displayed when the element
   is ready for playback

   pal: when you hit play you wouldn't want audio to start with
   the overhang

   acolwell: i think that's an implementation detail probably
   inconsistent with browsers today
   ... think that's a HTML issue not media source
   ... and it's a tiny time

   pal: yes, you can notice 23ms
   ... sounds like all that's needed is informative guidance to
   implementors
   ... that timestampOffset will work as is but might need
   examples perhaps with diagram of how to use it?

   paulc: please can you attach the pdf to the bug

   pal: yes

   paulc: do i take it that we have some level of consensus to
   deal with this bug 19784 that we don't believe we have a
   technical problem in the spec but the difficulty could be
   resolved with further explanatory material?

   acolwell: it sounds like an example that shows how this
   scenario would be resolved is required and then a note on
   implementors that at the beginning of playback possibly
   trimming the initial part of audio

   paulc: perhaps the right tactic might be to get this possible
   resolution into the bugzilla bug
   ... so that if it is not in FPWD then people would see that
   proposed disposition
   ... leave it to acolwell and pal about how to get this into
   bugzilla
   ... does the explanation for 19784 cascade to other bugs?

   pal: no

   paulc: so it was independent then

   pal: yes i picked this one because it was independent

   paulc: good, then we made progress

Other Business

   paulc: not going to cover anything else

Chair and Scribe for next meeting

   paulc: neither groups will meet dec 25 or jan 7
   ... jan 8 would normally be EME group
   ... but you should expect to see a combined agenda
   ... so i can give update on MSE candidate FPWD document
   ... so that i can take this to the working group

  acolwell: is there a day we should get this published?

   paulc: would the previous week some time be okay?
   ... by jan 4?

   acolwell: i think that's fine

   paulc: editors will deliver on or before jan 4
   ... if it doesn't happen we'll adapt
   ... want a stable document, consider a different URL for that
   doc
   ... don't want the item out for CfC to change under the
   decision

Adjournment

   paulc: wish everyone happy holidays - if you're travelling,
   travel safe
   ... we'll talk again jan 8

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]


From: Paul Cotton
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 6:17 PM
To: public-html-media@w3.org
Cc: Aaron Colwell <acolwell@google.com> (acolwell@google.com); Adrian Bateman; Mark Watson
Subject: {agenda} HTML WG media telecon 2012-12-18 - media source extension bugs and FPWD


The HTML WG media teleconference meeting will occur on 2012-12-18 for up to 60 minutes from 15:00Z to 16:00Z.



http://timeanddate.com/s/2afd



Tokyo midnight, Amsterdam/Oslo 17:00, London/Dublin 16:00, New Jersey/York 11:00, Kansas City 10:00, Seattle/San Francisco 08:00.



Chair of the meeting: Paul Cotton

Scribe: TBD



(See the end of this email for dial-in and IRC info.)



== Agenda ==



1. Roll call, introductions and selection of scribe



2. Previous meeting minutes

http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-html-wg-minutes.html



3. Review of action items

https://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/

None



4. Baseline documents and Bugzilla information



a) Media Source Extensions editor's draft:

http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html

Status as of Dec 13:  Last updated on Dec 13.

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Dec/0024.html



b) Media Source Extension bugs:

http://tinyurl.com/6pdnzej

Status as of Dec 12: 13 bugs (see list at end of agenda)



5. Progression to First Public Working Draft



a) Bug 20253 - Publish Media Source Extensions FPWD

https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20253

Note: Depends on bugs 17006, 18962 and 19673.



b) [MSE] Homework re: issues in the context of upcoming FPWD

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Dec/0017.html



6. Discussion of outstanding bugs



7. Other Business



8. Chair and Scribe for next meeting



9. Adjournment



== Dial-in and IRC Details ==



Zakim teleconference bridge:

   +1.617.761.6200, conference 63342 ("media")

https://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_5366



Supplementary IRC chat (logged):

   #html-media on irc.w3.org port 6665 or port 80



Paul Cotton, Microsoft Canada
17 Eleanor Drive, Ottawa, Ontario K2E 6A3
Tel: (425) 705-9596 Fax: (425) 936-7329

13 bugs found.
ID▲<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_file_loc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_id=&bug_id_type=anyexact&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&component=Media%20Source%20Extensions&email1=&email2=&emailtype1=substring&emailtype2=substring&field0-0-0=noop&keywords=&keywords_type=allwords&longdesc=&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr&product=HTML%20WG&query_format=advanced&short_desc=&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=&votes=&order=bug_id%20DESC&query_based_on=>

Product<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_file_loc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_id=&bug_id_type=anyexact&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&component=Media%20Source%20Extensions&email1=&email2=&emailtype1=substring&emailtype2=substring&field0-0-0=noop&keywords=&keywords_type=allwords&longdesc=&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr&product=HTML%20WG&query_format=advanced&short_desc=&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=&votes=&order=product%2Ctarget_milestone%20DESC%2Cpriority%2Cbug_id&query_based_on=>

Comp<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_file_loc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_id=&bug_id_type=anyexact&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&component=Media%20Source%20Extensions&email1=&email2=&emailtype1=substring&emailtype2=substring&field0-0-0=noop&keywords=&keywords_type=allwords&longdesc=&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr&product=HTML%20WG&query_format=advanced&short_desc=&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=&votes=&order=component%2Ctarget_milestone%20DESC%2Cpriority%2Cbug_id&query_based_on=>

Assignee<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_file_loc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_id=&bug_id_type=anyexact&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&component=Media%20Source%20Extensions&email1=&email2=&emailtype1=substring&emailtype2=substring&field0-0-0=noop&keywords=&keywords_type=allwords&longdesc=&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr&product=HTML%20WG&query_format=advanced&short_desc=&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=&votes=&order=assigned_to%2Ctarget_milestone%20DESC%2Cpriority%2Cbug_id&query_based_on=>

Status<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_file_loc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_id=&bug_id_type=anyexact&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&component=Media%20Source%20Extensions&email1=&email2=&emailtype1=substring&emailtype2=substring&field0-0-0=noop&keywords=&keywords_type=allwords&longdesc=&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr&product=HTML%20WG&query_format=advanced&short_desc=&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=&votes=&order=bug_status%2Ctarget_milestone%20DESC%2Cpriority%2Cbug_id&query_based_on=>

Resolution<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_file_loc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_id=&bug_id_type=anyexact&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&component=Media%20Source%20Extensions&email1=&email2=&emailtype1=substring&emailtype2=substring&field0-0-0=noop&keywords=&keywords_type=allwords&longdesc=&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr&product=HTML%20WG&query_format=advanced&short_desc=&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=&votes=&order=resolution%2Ctarget_milestone%20DESC%2Cpriority%2Cbug_id&query_based_on=>

Summary<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_file_loc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_id=&bug_id_type=anyexact&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&component=Media%20Source%20Extensions&email1=&email2=&emailtype1=substring&emailtype2=substring&field0-0-0=noop&keywords=&keywords_type=allwords&longdesc=&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr&product=HTML%20WG&query_format=advanced&short_desc=&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=&votes=&order=short_desc%2Ctarget_milestone%20DESC%2Cpriority%2Cbug_id&query_based_on=>

Changed<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_file_loc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_id=&bug_id_type=anyexact&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&component=Media%20Source%20Extensions&email1=&email2=&emailtype1=substring&emailtype2=substring&field0-0-0=noop&keywords=&keywords_type=allwords&longdesc=&longdesc_type=allwordssubstr&product=HTML%20WG&query_format=advanced&short_desc=&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=&votes=&order=changeddate%2Ctarget_milestone%20DESC%2Cpriority%2Cbug_id&query_based_on=>

17006<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17006>

HTML WG

Media So

adrianba

ASSI

---

<track> Setting track language & kind when the information is in a manifest <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17006>

2012-12-05

18962<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18962>

HTML WG

Media So

adrianba

ASSI

---

Allow appending with XHR <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18962>

2012-12-05

20253<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20253>

HTML WG

Media So

acolwell

ASSI

---

Publish Media Source Extensions FPWD <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20253>

Sat 06:57

18400<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18400>

HTML WG

Media So

watsonm

ASSI

---

Define and document timestamp heuristics <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18400>

2012-10-22

18575<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18575>

HTML WG

Media So

acolwell

ASSI

---

Section 2. Source Buffer Model should be non-normative <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18575>

2012-10-22

18592<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18592>

HTML WG

Media So

adrianba

NEW

---

How much is "enough data to ensure uninterrupted playback" <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18592>

2012-12-04

18615<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18615>

HTML WG

Media So

acolwell

ASSI

---

Define how SourceBuffer.buffered maps to HTMLMediaElement.buffered <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18615>

2012-10-22

18642<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18642>

HTML WG

Media So

acolwell

ASSI

---

Handle timestamp overflow in append(data) <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18642>

2012-10-22

18933<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18933>

HTML WG

Media So

watsonm

ASSI

---

Segment byte boundaries are not defined <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18933>

2012-10-21

19673<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19673>

HTML WG

Media So

adrianba

NEW

---

Seamless audio signal transitions at splice points <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19673>

Mon 17:58

19676<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19676>

HTML WG

Media So

adrianba

NEW

---

timestampOffset accuracy <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19676>

2012-12-04

19784<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19784>

HTML WG

Media So

adrianba

NEW

---

timestampOffset with multiplexed Media Segments <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19784>

2012-12-04

20327<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20327>

HTML WG

Media So

adrianba

NEW

---

Continuous splice flag <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20327>


Paul Cotton, Microsoft Canada
17 Eleanor Drive, Ottawa, Ontario K2E 6A3
Tel: (425) 705-9596 Fax: (425) 936-7329

Received on Tuesday, 18 December 2012 17:13:18 UTC