- From: John Hax <johnhax@gmail.com>
- Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 02:30:36 +0800
- To: Zi Bin Cheah <zibin@opera.com>
- Cc: (wrong string) 樂會ML <public-html-ig-zh@w3.org>, "KangHao Lu (Kenny)" <kennyluck@csail.mit.edu>
- Message-ID: <CAEeYXHWYUkwEqUoA_XniCyP9Jz5d28H_pUL_JsMU5tEqQO53WQ@mail.gmail.com>
老贴顶上来。 我发现现在HTML的spec里加上了U标签，用法是： The u<http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-u-element>element represents<http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#represents>a span of text with an unarticulated, though explicitly rendered, non-textual annotation, such as labeling the text as being a proper name in Chinese text (a Chinese proper name mark), or labeling the text as being misspelt. 有谁知道这个U是怎么又加上去的？ 老实说，我不认为专名号是一个足够支持U的case，因为专名号太罕用，如果真的有专名号需求，用<b class="pn">或<a href="#dfn_xxx">基本可以满足。况且现在U又不完全等同于专名号——拼错的字也用U…… 结果是，U这个标签很可能成为一个奇特的鸡肋——和过往一样，所有出现U的地方其实大多是误用…… 2010/10/1 John Hax <johnhax@gmail.com> > 我也赞同，u的问题太多，还是b比较靠谱。 > > 当然HTML标签的名字其实都含有西方习惯（如b源自bold，而中文专名号和bold没啥关系，又如hr的原意是水平分割，可是对于竖排文本当然应该是垂直分割），这事儿也是没办法的。 > > > 2010/10/1 Zi Bin Cheah <zibin@opera.com> > >> >> On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Yuan Chao wrote: >> >> 2010/9/30 Ethan Chen <chief@ethantw.net> >>> >>> 最後一項是讓相鄰兩專名底下的專名號不相連，�@個作法有點問題，最好的方式如下圖，文字間沒有任何間隔，底線卻有： >>> >>> �@張圖是 Yahoo 注音輸入法的標詞功能，方便我們選字用的。我覺得�@應該是瀏覽器實作 underline 的問題，Yahoo >>> 做得出來瀏覽器也該做得出來。是不是有列入標準的可能呢？ >>> >> >> >> 几种可能性 >> >> 1。用 <b> >> Ethan提到<b>比<mark>更合适，因为mark带有强调作用 >> >> 2。新标签 >> 大家是否知道日韩那边有没有这样的请求？ >> >> 更简单的问以下，大家觉得网上使用的可能性会多吗？还是书名号使用究竟还是边缘的case？ >> >> >> >> �@點很有意義，標專名號的目的，就是要幫助分辨名詞斷詞的部份。英文的word是靠空白間隔， >>> 漢字就得靠「經驗」跟標點符號了。要是拿CSS來做，可以靠增加字間距的方式？ >>> 我也覺得還是應該要列入標準當中。 >>> >>> 所以另一個討論串中，拿空白來分隔英文，其實是以西文的思維來處理？ >>> (個人也是偏好目前辦公室軟體的做法) >>> >>> 同时请教一下，现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗？ >>>> >>> 你指的是「文字標註音標」嗎？ >>> �@是指用ruby畫專名號跟書名號嗎？ >>> >> >> 只是突然想到ruby负责标符号，那它也能不能标书名号？不过又好象没有牵扯到。。。 >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> 在 Sep 30, 2010 6:26 PM 時， Zi Bin Cheah 寫到： >>> >>> 专名号在大马算是没人用，大陆那边应该也少用。可能港台教科书有用，电纸书盛行也可能会推动使用率。 >>>> >>>> Ian拒绝用<u>语义化来用专名号其实我本人觉得是对的。试想想现在大家脑子里一看到<U>就想到underline, >>>> 重新教育有多难，而且大家都会继续滥用。 >>>> >>>> 当然这没有解决专名号的需求。我想到的一个方法是用mark然后用CSS去underline它。不晓得这个方法实际吗？ >>>> >>>> 同时请教一下，现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗？ >>>> >>>> On Sep 30, 2010, at 1:46 AM, KangHao Lu (Kenny) wrote: >>>> >>>> 說明一下、、�@算是對之前專名號的討論[1]做的回應，總之就是希望HTML5標準書至少不會把<u>放在「不合標準的標籤」[2] >>>>> 而至少放在「將被拋棄但是合標準」[3]。很抱歉沒先在�@個郵件群組得到共識，但是從10/1開始回報標準錯誤的過程會進入下一個階段所以我至少希望�@個議題在�@個時候被拿出來討論一下。我目前的看法是 >>>>> >>>>> - 加一個新標籤（像是<pn>之類的）真的很不可能 >>>>> - 用<a>或<a href>（屬性沒值）是一種濫用 >>>>> - <span class="pn"> 還是有點太長了 >>>>> - >>>>> Mike跟我講說<i>留下來的很大原因是因為西方會用斜體標船名，總不能發明一個<ship>吧。所以<u>是比較實在的，而且也不少人支持把<u>拿回來。 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 總之�@個議題處理的狀況都會CC到�@個列表啦，如果�@個提案被回絕了大家也多多瞭解�@個HTML5編輯Ian >>>>> Hickson是怎麼做事的吧。議題回報裡我也提到了之前的討論（三年前了、、），有些為什麼<u>不見了但是<b><i>回來了的原因（主要就是<u>跟超連結的混亂問題）。不過那時候都沒什麼人提到專名號所以�@次就順便提了一提啦！ >>>>> >>>>> 歡迎大家用HTML5 Bug Tracker的時候CC到�@邊來。 >>>>> >>>>> 有空再多介紹一些HTML5的名人吧（像是Bug裡提到的Apple的Maciej[5]） >>>>> >>>>> [1] >>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-zh/2010Aug/threadl#msg184 >>>>> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#non-conforming-features >>>>> [3] >>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-conforming-features >>>>> [4] >>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268 >>>>> [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maciej_Stachowiak >>>>> >>>>> 此致 >>>>> >>>>> Kenny >>>>> >>>>> On 2010/09/30, at 8:06, bugzilla@jessica.w3.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10838 >>>>>> >>>>>> Summary: Make <u> conforming. >>>>>> Product: HTML WG >>>>>> Version: unspecified >>>>>> Platform: PC >>>>>> URL: >>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but- >>>>>> conforming-features >>>>>> OS/Version: All >>>>>> Status: NEW >>>>>> Severity: major >>>>>> Priority: P3 >>>>>> Component: HTML5 spec (editor: Ian Hickson) >>>>>> AssignedTo: ian@hixie.ch >>>>>> ReportedBy: kennyluck@w3.org >>>>>> QAContact: public-html-bugzilla@w3.org >>>>>> CC: mike@w3.org, public-html-wg-issue-tracking@w3.org, >>>>>> public-html@w3.org, public-i18n-cjk@w3.org, >>>>>> public-html-ig-zh@w3.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This was discussed in a long thread[1] three years ago. There was no >>>>>> consensus >>>>>> and no response from the editor, but since some people like Maciej >>>>>> think we can >>>>>> make <u> at least conforming[2], I would like to raise this bug to >>>>>> catch the >>>>>> editor's attention. >>>>>> >>>>>> Proper name mark, in Chinese [3] is a use case that was slightly >>>>>> mentioned in >>>>>> the thread (see also an example picture[4]). The purpose of this mark >>>>>> is to >>>>>> highlight *every* proper noun in some text to help the reader break >>>>>> words, >>>>>> cause Chinese people don't use spaces for word breaking. Although it >>>>>> is no >>>>>> longer popular recently, proper name mark is still used in some >>>>>> textbooks in >>>>>> Taiwan (esp. children's Chinese textbook) and Hong Kong. Because the >>>>>> purpose >>>>>> and frequency of using "proper name mark" in a piece of text is >>>>>> similar to code >>>>>> highlighting, I personally don't think it's appropriate to use <mark> >>>>>> for this >>>>>> purpose since the spec says "This (<mark>) is separate from syntax >>>>>> highlighting, for which span is more appropriate." But then <span >>>>>> class="pn"> >>>>>> is probably too long. This is not yet a very prevalent use case >>>>>> because proper >>>>>> name marks are often used in combination with vertical text and >>>>>> vertical text >>>>>> is not yet popular on the Web. >>>>>> >>>>>> While I do strongly agree that an underlined text which is not a >>>>>> hyperlink >>>>>> confuses the user in his/her browsing experience, there are HTML user >>>>>> agents >>>>>> for which browsing the Web isn't the main purpose and hence the user >>>>>> might not >>>>>> get confused. e-book readers are such examles. >>>>>> >>>>>> [1] >>>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268 >>>>>> [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0307 >>>>>> [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_name_mark >>>>>> [4] http://www.go8.com.tw/files/4168%200004.jpg >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Configure bugmail: >>>>>> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/userprefs.cgi?tab=email >>>>>> ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- >>>>>> You are on the CC list for the bug. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Zi Bin Cheah / 谢子斌 >>>> >>>> Web Evangelist >>>> / Developer Relations / Site Compatibility / Products Group / >>>> >>>> Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway >>>> + 47 23 69 25 81 / twitter: zibin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Yuan Chao >>> >> >> Regards, >> >> Zi Bin Cheah / 谢子斌 >> >> Web Evangelist >> / Developer Relations / Site Compatibility / Products Group / >> >> Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway >> + 47 23 69 25 81 / twitter: zibin >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
Received on Friday, 5 August 2011 18:31:07 UTC