W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html-comments@w3.org > September 2009

Re: HTML5's Q element

From: Ryan Roberts <hello@ryanroberts.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 23:37:59 +0100
Message-ID: <4AA196C7.7060901@ryanroberts.co.uk>
To: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
CC: public-html-comments@w3.org
Ian Hickson wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Ryan Roberts wrote:
>> Ian Hickson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Ryan Roberts wrote:
>>>>> If you want quote marks in the source, use quote marks in the
>>>>> source, and don't use<q>.
>>>>> If you want quote marks added automatically, use<q>.
>>>> This makes little sense. What you're saying is<q>  has no semantic
>>>> purpose anymore, it's there for presentation (see your further
>>>> down).
>>> I'm not sure what you mean by "semantic purpose". In what sense is all
>>> of HTML not just "there for presentation"?
>>> The whole point of HTML is to be a media-independent, platform-
>>> independent, stylable documenta and application language. Presentation
>>> (on multiple media, devices, etc) is the most important use case.
>> Maybe I'm not explaining myself properly, I'm just a web designer and
>> nobody fancy. I believed many if not most elements such as<q>, were
>> there to describe the content. I see now this isn't the case with<q>,
>> but it's only really like that because it's broken and nobody wants to
>> fix it.
> <q>  does describe contents -- it means "this is a quote, so add quote
> marks". Just like<p>  means "this is a paragraph, so add a line break
> before and after". Or in different media, "This is a quote, so use a
> slightly different voice" and "This is a paragraph, so pause before and
> after". Elements in HTML are media-independent presentation hooks.
Right, HTML is tied much closer to the browser than I thought it was. 
Even if that doesn't make sense to you thanks for the feedback, I think 
I'm understanding it better.
>>>>> It would be stupid of us to try to change this now given that all
>>>>> four major browsers ship with a<q>  that inserts quote marks. This
>>>>> was discussed in depth last year, and the spec was changed (from
>>>>> not inserting quotes to inserting quotes) after it was concluded
>>>>> that swimming against the browser vendors here was futile.
>>>> Then hand the spec over to them.
>>> In what sense have we not handed the spec over to them? Browser
>>> vendors, as the most high-profile implementors of the spec, have full
>>> control over what ends up being implemented. I'm not going to make the
>>> spec say somethin they won't do; that would just turn the spec into an
>>> especially dry form of science fiction.
>> I understand that they have final say over what goes in their browsers,
>> but I can't say I like them having final say over the HTML5 spec itself.
> What's the point in the HTML5 spec describing something that isn't what
> the browsers do?
To create a standard they all aim for... no clearly this isn't the case.
>>>>> At this point, the<q>  element's purpose is to enable CSS-based
>>>>> quotation mark injection. If you don't want that, then don't
>>>>> use<q>.
>>>> So at this point how do you mark up an inline quote?
>>> One of the following:
>>>      <p>Ryan asked "So at this point how do you mark up an inline
>>>      quote?"</p>
>>>      <p>Ryan asked<q>So at this point how do you mark up an inline
>>>      quote?</q></p>
>> In that case why not have<p>  auto inert a period then we could have the
>> following:
>> Ryan doesn't like what he's hearing.
>> <p>Ryan doesn't like what he's hearing</p>
> We do -- well, not periods, but line breaks.<p>  inserts line breaks,
> which you can override from the CSS, just like<q>  inserts quotes, which
> you can override from the CSS.

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Received on Friday, 4 September 2009 22:38:44 UTC

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