MINUTES: HTML A11Y TF Teleconference, 1 October 2015

The minutes for the HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference held on 1
October 2015 are available in HTML and plain text below:




      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

              HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

01 Oct 2015

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-html-a11y-irc


          janina, LJWatson, ShaneM, chaals, LJWatson], bkardell_,
          Judy, IanPouncey, MarkS, plh, liam, Rich_Schwerdtfeger




     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]Agenda Edits & Additions
         2. [5]"we expect to get another month"
         3. [6]MAUR Update - Janina
         4. [7]TPAC Planning
         5. [8]Web Payments Followup
         6. [9]Alt Doc Update -- Shane, Liam
         7. [10]Drag & Drop: Does it work? Chaals
         8. [11]Tab Panels Update -- Leonie, Et Al
         9. [12]TF Open Actions http://w3.org/wai/pf/html/track
     * [13]Summary of Action Items

   <trackbot> Date: 01 October 2015

   <janina> trackbot, start meeting

   <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force

   <trackbot> Date: 01 October 2015

Agenda Edits & Additions

"we expect to get another month"

   <chaals> CMN: we expect to have a one month extension to the
   HTML group, so we can worry about the future at TPAC…

   <chaals> JB: expect APA to happen within that timeframe too…

   <scribe> scribe: MarkS

   JS: FYI, we published LCWD last fall. We received several good
   comments and handled most of them in the Spring.
   ... just now got around to responding to commenters
   ... hope to get Note published before TPAC
   ... who publishes is unknown.

   CMN: anything controversial? perhaps we should start a Call for
   consensus next week.

   JS: that is a good idea. I will follow through on that.

   <ShaneM> +1 on a CfC

   <chaals> ACTION: janina to start a CfC to publish MAUR as a
   note [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-335 - Start a cfc to publish maur as
   a note [on Janina Sajka - due 2015-10-08].

MAUR Update - Janina

   <chaals> [agenda:
   et ]

     [15] http://www.w3.org/mid/20151001003822.GL1737@opera.rednote.net

TPAC Planning

   CMN: we asked people to be at TPAC. There is a slot for various
   group who may or may not exist
   ... who will be there and available second half of the week.

   <LJWatson> Available on Friday.

   <janina> I'll be there

   MarkS is a maybe

   <liam> [I'll be there all week]

   <IanPouncey> I won't be there

   <chaals> [I expect to have conflicts for TPAC - Web

   <Judy> I'll be there

   <ShaneM> I will be there but web payments is meeting thursday
   friday so... I will be at that a lot

   <plh> I'll be divided between rooms as usual

   <LJWatson> Friday pending Web Platforms stuff.

   JS: I will be chairing PF Thur and Fri

   CMN: If you have not registered, you should do that right away

   PLH: hotels are filling up!

Web Payments Followup

   JS: looking for recruits for a User Req. doc for this.
   ... so far, me, JF, Shane volunteered to be editor.
   ... I have a commitment to strip the MAUR to everything related
   to Media to use as a base document for Web Payments.
   ... hope to do before TPAC

   CMN: given that payments is not HTML, but another WG, should
   this be something between APA and WP?

   JS: good idea
   ... most of us are going to be in APA

   SM: I'm in WP as well

Alt Doc Update -- Shane, Liam

   JS: Did not get a chance to bring this up in PF yesterday.
   ... will be asking WCAG to review language. Need a close review
   from expert reviewers. As many as we can put on the draft.
   ... then we will follow bugs against HTML spec, and hopefully
   get into HTML5.1 draft

   <chaals> [16]Alt doc draft

     [16] https://w3c.github.io/alt-techniques/

Drag & Drop: Does it work? Chaals

   CMN: this is a question that came from ARIA stuff. Whether or
   not D&D works in ARIA or in HTML. Do we have a special ARIA
   version, or should ARIA deprecate and building it right into
   ... up to people who have implementation support to say which
   they think is the best solution.

   IP: I've had a very hard time to get it to work.
   ... lots and lots of JS. This is just HTML attempt

   <liam> [D&D unsupported on touch devices]

   BK: and its unsupported in touch as well, correct?

   <Zakim> LJWatson, you wanted to say Jaws has lost support for
   ARIA drag/drop somewhere between v11 and v17.

   RS: We have decided to deprecate what we have in ARIA 1.1. We
   would like to depend on whatever HTML can support and then add
   any missing pieces in ARIA.next

   JS: about two years ago, we looked into this and there were
   serious discussions on this, around what it would take. Should
   probably have that again

   LW: JAWS 11 used to support ARIA D&D, but somewhere along the
   way, support was lost. I have filed bugs. No idea when this
   ... you can tell which elements could be grabbed, but issuing
   commands to grab it were not accessible.
   ... filed bugs with Freedom Scientific
   ... will share with you

   <chaals> ACTION: chaals to explain the IME / cententeditable
   issue in email [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-336 - Explain the ime /
   cententeditable issue in email [on Charles McCathie Nevile -
   due 2015-10-08].

   <bkardell_> can everyone check that they a muted there's
   frequently a skipping echo making it a little hard to hear - or
   is that just for me?

   CMN: people working on this are interested in something called
   ContentEditable = typing. That will include using IMEs, like
   what we use when you want to input non standard characters

   <bkardell_> liam: seems to be helping to me

   CMN: none of the people working on that had not Assistive
   Technology experience.
   ... looking for anyone with Chinese Japanese or Korean
   ... Javascript RTE component in a web page, like TInyMCE,
   CKEditor, etc.
   ... knowledge of how these work as well as AT experience

   <chaals> ACTION: chaals to add contenteditable and IME issues
   to TPAC agenda [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-337 - Add contenteditable and ime
   issues to tpac agenda [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due

   JS: this should be something we should talk about at TPAC.
   there may be experts there. Lots of participation for Japanese,
   Chinese and Korean people

   JB: There will be people from Korea and China there that are
   interested in working on this.

Tab Panels Update -- Leonie, Et Al

   CMN: can you send an email? make introductions?

   <plh> sorry

   JB: because of progress on APA and ARIA, etc. we are having
   lots of confusion about scheduling

   CMN: likely early in the week to talk about this.

   JB: maybe you can get a separate email out to coordinate

   BK: Leonie and I met up and tried to make a habit of getting
   editors together for a quick standup to keep this moving
   forward. Two actions items. 1 to write a easier to understand
   intro to the spec. trying to get that out there to get regular
   users involved.
   ... 2. I will sync up with Polymer devs. They are busy at the
   moment. They have some existing functionality that is lower
   level than what we are designing, but could be used to drive
   ... interesting because they have access to browser
   ... tricky to get people to use it because of the lack of
   shadow DOM that can be styled, etc.

   <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to add scope creep to tabpanels

   BK: we did this with input modality work as well (easy to
   understand description) and it was successful

   CMN: this would have more success if it replaced

   <chaals> [19]a chemistry diagram in SVG

     [19] http://svg-access-w3cg.github.io/use-case-examples/chem-BV-ox.svg

   CMN: I was playing around with a chemistry diagram, and
   thinking about how you could navigate around and this is pretty
   much like an expandable tree. The tree itself is always
   visible. Then it occurred to me that the same metaphor, nested
   tab panels, applied here as well.
   ... would tab panels be able to handle this use case?
   ... having a native object, like a tab panel, would be much
   better than complex JS navigation.

   BK: this came up in my organization as well. On mobile, when
   you have a hamburger navigation, you want something accordion
   like, but sometimes its nested. Is that a tree? can you next
   panel sets?
   ... there were some concerns about i18n, concerns that
   panel/title should be an element of its own.
   ... what worried me about that was that it would be unclear on
   to navigate this.
   ... tabs in your OS cannot contain form fields, but panelsets
   can, so theoretically this is possible.
   ... the element that can be expanded/collapsed is frequently a
   link on its own. There is a lot of overlap here.

   CMN: to go back to SVG a11y TF, just the navigation, is there a
   sense of what the metaphor for navigation is.
   ... open question. won't get an answer today, or even this
   week. but something to consider.
   ... SVG sorta had this solved, but they are trying to come up
   with a better solution.

   RS: looking at this diagram, are you looking to reveal content?

   CMN: the diagram has 4 blocks, initial chemicals, then a
   transformation, then changes, then transformation, etc. Would
   like to enable people to start in initial ketone and then give
   them the ability to go to any step in the process wihtout going
   through all transformations.
   ... I'm thinking purely about focus navigation.

   BK: so each phase in this would be a panel, with a title. then
   you could skip between the things, then drill down when you
   ... same navigation requirement as panels. not visually, just

   <ShaneM> This feels like a hack to me.

   SM: you can solve any problem by adding a layer of abstraciton,
   but pretending something is a tab when it isn't...

   CMN: I'm talking about interaction behavior.

   being able to apply that to trees, etc.

   BK: the spec doesn't use the work TAB, it uses panel and panel
   ... in ARIA, they are TABS.

   LW: the semantics are limiting.
   ... the only ARIA we can use TAB/TABLIST/TABPANEL
   ... and that is not the semantics we want in HTML
   ... we are focusing on PANEL at this point.

   CMN: lets get a human readable explanation ;)

   RS: lets discuss this at TPAC

   CS: would love to talk about web components too

   RS: probably schedule something Mon - Tues at TPAC. trying to
   schedule with Chaals

   LW: nothing to report.

   CMN: any other business?


TF Open Actions [20]http://w3.org/wai/pf/html/track

     [20] http://w3.org/wai/pf/html/track

   CMN: all open actions are on Me and Cynthia, one on PLH which
   is now complete.

   <chaals> close action-332

   <trackbot> Closed action-332.

   CMN: I did this.
   ... 329

   <chaals> action-329?

   <trackbot> action-329 -- Charles McCathie Nevile to Take up
   "media descriptions" topic in the tf -- due 2015-07-16 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/329

     [21] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/329

   CMN: transcript and describing a poster. No real solutions for
   these. Everything else has a mechanism.
   ... Was brought up in TF, everyone agreed

   <chaals> close action-329

   <trackbot> Closed action-329.

   CMN: rest of mine are outstanding.

   <chaals> action-324 on ljwatson

   <chaals> close action-330

   <trackbot> Closed action-330.


   <chaals> action-226 to ljwatson

   to bug steve

   cyns and LW to meet next week

   <chaals> action-318 due in 10 days

   <trackbot> Set action-318 Work with léonie on describing the
   extensions requested to web driver, and the motivation… due
   date to 2015-10-11.


   <chaals> close action-274

   <trackbot> Closed action-274.

   not going to do it

   RS: can we meet with Web Apps/Web Components on Monday?

   CMN: there is a wiki page for the meeting
   ... i will share link
   ... then you can scheduleyourself in

   <chaals> [22]Webapps tpac meeting page

     [22] https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/October2015Meeting

   CMN: web apps sets the agenda each morning.

   RS: we need an hour


Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: chaals to add contenteditable and IME issues to
   TPAC agenda [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: chaals to explain the IME / cententeditable issue
   in email [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: janina to start a CfC to publish MAUR as a note
   [recorded in

   [End of minutes]

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

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Found Scribe: MarkS
Inferring ScribeNick: MarkS
Present: janina LJWatson ShaneM chaals LJWatson] bkardell_ Judy IanPounc
ey MarkS plh liam Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Found Date: 01 Oct 2015
Guessing minutes URL: [29]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-html-a11y-minutes
People with action items: chaals janina

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Received on Thursday, 1 October 2015 16:20:35 UTC