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Re: ARIA use in HTML other than for accessibility.

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 10:43:07 +0100
Message-ID: <CA+ri+V=L+5ho4HzAV=P-J0h5KxL_FMjO9XjZ8wjFwyMwv-Pf8w@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com>
Cc: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>, _mallory <stommepoes@stommepoes.nl>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <public-pfwg@w3.org>, HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>
Are their reasons against the use of prefixed role values for specific
vocabularies?
Example role="pub-glossary"?

If there are what are they?

--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>

On 5 May 2015 at 20:24, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com>
wrote:

>
> > because I was having a terrible time just getting the materials I needed
> for school in an accessible manner.
>
> This is an excellent use case for why the time came long ago for
> extensions.
>
> It is highly unlikely that most authors know that they intend to indicate
> that each chapter is a landmark and each sidebar is an <aside> (default
> role ="complimentary"). What about the glossary term that pops up when the
> user taps on the glossary term but also displays as an aggregated list at
> the end of the chapter?  Should the ARIA mark up only the widget
> functionality or should there be something telling the user that this is a
> glossary term and definition embedded in <dl> and associated with the
> glossary term in the content? Would it be valuable for there to be a role
> indicating that a region includes assessments instead of simply providing a
> region with a name "assessment"? This might offer some uniformity in
> test-taking for standardized tests. These are just a few of the example
> that publishers face as we attempt to provide accessible content to our
> users.
>
> The DAISY Consortium has been publishing for years using the principles
> that semantics (or if you prefer, inflection) guide usability and
> accessibility. They developed a structural semantic vocabulary [3] to
> standardize the structure of written documents.  I know countless people
> who have relied heavily on DAISY's Digital Talking Book to learn. DAISY and
> IDPF joined forces to create EPUB 3 [4] as the accessible publication
> format, with the full expectation that publishers would include proper ARIA
> markup. EPUB 3 is also the standard for digital publication that the vast
> majority of publishers and reading systems in the world use. The EPUB
> structural semantic vocabulary [5] evolved and continues to evolve. One of
> the amazing things about this vocabulary is that it benefits everyone. I (a
> publisher) can create one table of contents with extensive CSS that feeds
> into every reading system and user agents' automated bookmarking tool to
> generate a table of contents widget, with the help of this vocabulary. It
> would benefit an even wider audience if there was a clear path forward to
> map these terms to the accessibility tree.  This is not representing lazy
> developers, but the varied audience of those developing with ARIA  and
> taking advantage of its communication with AT.
>
> I don't think this will be easy, but I think the benefits greatly outweigh
> the risks.
>
> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2015May/0030.html
> [2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015May/0031.html
> [3] http://www.daisy.org/z3998/2012/vocab/structure/
> [4] http://idpf.org/epub/30
> [5] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
>
> Tzviya Siegman
> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
> Wiley
> 201-748-6884
> tsiegman@wiley.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bryan Garaventa [mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com]
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 7:34 PM
> To: _mallory
> Cc: W3C WAI Protocols & Formats
> Subject: RE: ARIA use in HTML other than for accessibility.
>
> > Those whom I trust as a developer to tell me accurate things aren't
> > teaching at university. They're working as engineers right now. Most of
> them are more familiar with the field because they're creating it
> themselves, at companies.
>
> I agree that this is the case now, however I take what many companies
> build apart every day, and I can attest from years of doing this that the
> vast majority of mainstream developers at companies still have a very
> limited understanding of what ARIA does and how it specifically interacts
> with ATs, in many ways causing more problems than it solves when applied
> without this level of understanding.
>
> The power in ARIA is that it directly interfaces with Assistive
> Technologies. This is also the primary danger of it, because if developers
> don't take this into account when using it, they can easily break
> accessibility instead of enhancing it.
>
> A simple example of this is the use of role=alert when applied to a timer
> field that counts the number of seconds displayed there. It may seem
> useful, but since it ties into the alert system on the platform operating
> system, it causes nothing but this information to be constantly repeated no
> matter what a screen reader user is doing on the computer, effectively
> hijacking their system.
>
> > Last time I saw "web development" in higher education, it was still
> espousing <center> and <font> tags and everything in frames. In 2012.
>
> It's true that many old-school learning materials are often out of date
> given the pace of development that we face, but that's no excuse for not
> trying to provide better learning materials for those who are trying to
> learn while still in school.
>
> When provided as E-learning materials, the same materials are available to
> all developers whether they are enrolled in school or not, thus maximizing
> exposure and knowledge transfer. These don't have to be books necessarily,
> but actual interactive online materials that users can learn from, provided
> preferably by those here at the W3C to add weight to their validity. This
> goes beyond the scope of simple tutorials however, which is where the
> background and platform level aspects of ARIA have to be conveyed at the
> same time.
>
> This way new and learning developers won't have to continually return to
> W3Schools for this purpose instead.
>
> > You have gone through this before-- was it something most people in the
> field learned by themselves as well, or something more traditional
> (Computer Science for example)?
>
> To put things into perspective, when I was in school, I was in my early
> twenties and really had no idea what I wanted to do at that time. The
> technology field seemed really interesting though, and everybody seemed to
> be excited about the new developments there. I also realized just how bad
> accessibility for technologies at that time sucked, because I was having a
> terrible time just getting the materials I needed for school in an
> accessible manner. Other things were going on then, and it became necessary
> for me to find work instead of continuing my schooling. So I figured I
> could do both and learn more about the technology field and learn
> programming, hopefully to make things work a bit better.
>
> So I bought outdated eBooks on markup languages, learned them, studied
> online resources and thousands of tutorials and blog posts, discovered how
> many were misguided, full of mistakes and just plain wrong when it came to
> using ATs such as screen readers with them, and had to eventually invent my
> own system to quantify accessible dynamic content management in a way that
> made sense and so that I could really make some progress in building
> interactive web controls accessibly and with consistent results. This also
> required that I learn visually oriented programming as well, such as CSS,
> in order to understand how everything fit together when combined as fully
> functional widgets. Since I can't see, I needed to find or invent tools
> that would allow me to do this, and luckily as time went on others in the
> field coming up against the same challenges were working on parallell
> projects and we were able to share ideas and make this happen.
>
> None of these things were ever easy, and it's taken me over fifteen years
> to learn and build all that I have in order to help others so that they may
> not have to do the same as I.
>
> If things had been different, I would have loved to get a CS degree. I
> don't think it would have made learning web development or ARIA any easier
> at that time, because these disciplins weren't around then as they exist
> now.
>
> The value of the times that we are in now though, gives us a unique
> oportunity to provide real and accurate learning materials for all
> developers, because many of these technologies are sufficiently advanced
> and stable to allow for true education to be possible, where before they
> were not.
>
> What upsets me about these circular conversations about ARIA, is the idea
> that we need to make explaining ARIA so simple that developers don't have
> to learn about accessibility.
>
> I don't have any problem with making ARIA easy to learn, it's the idea
> that developers don't also need to understand how it effects accessibility
> that I find to be a disservice to future developers who actually might find
> these things interesting, instead of just onnorous.
>
> Going back to the original topic, I would love it if technologies had
> in-built logic that automate accessibility especially when using ARIA. The
> fact is though that we don't have magically advanced systems such as these
> yet, and if future engineers are never trained in how to make them this way
> from the outset by having a firm grasp of the concepts involved, we never
> will.
>
> I apologize for the rant, but I really having been banging my head against
> this particular wall for many years.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: _mallory [mailto:stommepoes@stommepoes.nl]
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 7:26 AM
> To: Bryan Garaventa
> Subject: Re: ARIA use in HTML other than for accessibility.
>
> On Sun, May 03, 2015 at 04:18:22AM +0000, Bryan Garaventa wrote:
> > > Yes tackling it in education is important. But also giving working
> developers resoruces to learn more without the expense involved in further
> education.
> >
> > I agree, but having gone through this particular gauntlet first hand, I
> also know that such educational resources must be first written by those
> who are most familiar with this knowledge in the field, which unfortunately
> does go back to education.
> >
>
> Those whom I trust as a developer to tell me accurate things aren't
> teaching at university. They're working as engineers right now. Most of
> them are more familiar with the field because they're creating it
> themselves, at companies.
>
> Last time I saw "web development" in higher education, it was still
> espousing <center> and <font> tags and everything in frames. In 2012.
>
> You have gone through this before-- was it something most people in the
> field learned by themselves as well, or something more traditional
> (Computer Science for example)?
>
> _mallory
>
>
>
Received on Friday, 8 May 2015 09:44:18 UTC

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